Is Florida a "Hockey Market?"

by BReynolds on Nov 17, 2009 10:20 AM CST Comment 45 comments

Just read a Puck Daddy interview with one of the new co-owners of the Panthers, Stu Seigal. It is an interesting read, if you get caught up in the whole non-traditional hockey market debate.

He claims that Florida is a hockey market due to the fact that there are so many people from the north that retire there or visit there. My favorite line is:

"We're also a huge market for tourism, and when we have games against teams like Montreal and Toronto and New York, we have a huge number of people in our building cheering for the visiting team."

So... the only way a team survives in the market is by filling your building with fans of the opposite team? And that makes you a hockey market? I don't think so. Fill it with crazy people, willing to go shirtless and paint their faces and we can talk. Fill it with people who know who Kovalchuk is and who he plays for. Fill it with people who know who Getzlaf is. Fill it with people who can name three players currently on the Panthers roster, and then maybe, just maybe, we can talk. Fill it with people who can name an NHL player other than Alexander Ovechkin, Sidney Crosby, or Evgeni Malkin, and we can talk.

Make the jump, join the conversation, or just call me names.

Editor's note: I am expecting an exemption for those fans that sit in the Club Level at the X. They have about as much hockey knowledge as my 16 month-old-daughter.

I do not doubt for a second that there are some ravenous fans down there. There are always loyal fans no matter where you put a team. We had a team here in Minnesota a few years back, the Minnesota Fighting Pike. They lasted a year. It was a new sport, played in an odd way, with rules that people were unfamiliar with. I would be willing to bet they lost a ton of money. No one in Minnesota knew who or what they were. I went to one game, and I was hooked. I was ready to be a season ticket holding arena football fan. They folded before I got the chance

So, even arena league football in Minnesota had a chance to be successful. Not one time however, do I remember them making the case that people from Texas come to Minnesota all the time, so this team will be successful.

Now, to his credit, Seigal does admit that they have done a bad job of converting those hockey fans in the area into Panthers fans. I am not certain how one goes about doing so. Just because I move to Florida (which I hope never has to happen) does not make me want to cheer for the Panthers. Canadian hockey fans are fiercely loyal, as are most fans from the northern US.

Again, not trying to take away from the markets in so called "non-traditional" markets that have made it work. I got myself in a bit of hot water last season when I interviewed the writers over at Preds on the Glass. They schooled me on the fan base in Nashville, and made many very clear, very potent arguments about the fierce loyalty they have for their Predators.

I have had conversations with many bloggers from around the NHL, and would never want to insult anyone of them, nor the team they passionately love. I would never want to alienate our friends over at Litter Box Cats. I know there are passionate, loyal, desperate hockey fans all over the world. I know that there are people in Florida, maybe even in Tampa (yes a shot at the Bolts too), who know who Ilya Kovalchuk is. Now, find 17,999 more, and we can start to chat about Florida being a hockey market.

Is Florida the next Phoenix? I don't know about that. Phoenix is absolutely NOT a hockey market, and one of the most important people to my hockey writing future is a Coyotes fan.When I went to a game in Phoenix, I was handed a pamphlet explaining the rules and game play of hockey by comparing it to basketball. I almost pulled the guy's jersey over his head and beat him. Then a fan told her kid that they were entered in a drawing to ride the Zamboni, which we all know is the "machine that cleans the ice at halftime."

Florida might be better than Phoenix for hockey, but at this point, I am really doubting it. I know that San Jose and Anaheim have been contenders for a great period of time, and have built a fan base out of nothing. The Predators did the same, despite not having been true contenders yet. Dallas suffered through its lumps and has a large loyal base.

I am not trying to do another, as Ms. Conduct would call it, "Minnesota hockey fans are so much better and smarter than those southern rubes" post. I am trying to have a conversation about this. I am not better than any other hockey fan out there, and would love for hockey to grow some roots in Florida and Phoenix. It just seems to me that the people in the markets that have had success are not targeting the tourist base and hoping to fill their buildings with fans wearing the wrong colors.

I am not a contractionist, and I do not want Jim Basillie in the league. I had never heard of Hamilton, Ontario until the debate started to move a team there. I have lived through my team being ripped away and moved, and I would never wish it on anyone. However, Florida has never had success selling tickets. They have not shown progress in it, either. They are in trouble, no doubt about that.

They have new owners, who are the old owners. The team will not change quickly, and they will not have over night success. It will take time to build a winner from nothing, especially when the free agents do not want to stay and help build the franchise.

So. Let's leave the pettiness behind, let's not accuse Florida fans of not being "real" hockey fans or make threats about taking their team away. Let's not pretend we are any better than them, because we aren't. Let's take a moment and ask the question. "Is Florida a hockey market?" Or are they truly going to need to rely on the traveling fans of other teams?

I hope we can get some input from Florida hockey fans...

-Buddha

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Phoenix could’ve been a hockey market – had the team not gone six years without making playoffs. Wins put people in the seats, after all. If a team doesn’t win, then who’d want to go see them play? Chicago found that out the hard way a few years ago, and no one’s disputing Chicago as a hockey market – despite the fact that they were drawing less than 10,000 fans a game for a while there.

Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning Blog. Calling shotgun in the clown car.

by Cassie McClellan on Nov 17, 2009 10:28 AM CST reply actions 1 recs

Arena placement matters

I know it sounds like a trivial thing — I was never aware of how bad the placement of Glendale arena was until people started talking about how it takes 2+ hours to drive there from the eastern ‘burbs. One of our vendor reps just moved down there and he said he left his office in Tempe at around 5:15pm to get over to the arena and grab some food before the 7pm game… and he didn’t pull into the parking lot until the 2nd period.

Look at the top revenue teams http://www.forbes.com/lists/2009/31/hockey-values-09_NHL-Team-Valuations_Revenue.html

Population density probably has a lot to do with their success, but the ACC, Bell Centre, MSG, and UC are also all accessible via subway mass transit.

by SpaethCo on Nov 17, 2009 11:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I can agree with that. Arenas located in downtowns do better than ones out in the burbs. But even still, if you’ve got a winning team, then distance doesn’t seem to matter as much.

Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning Blog. Calling shotgun in the clown car.

by Cassie McClellan on Nov 17, 2009 12:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Winning IS Everything

People want a band wagon to jump on. I was at the Wild/Caps game in DC this weekend and they have a whole lot of southern rube fans. One guy who was making fun of my Minnesotan “accent” with his southern twang told me the Caps would school us when we got to the fourth period. Yes, he was totally serious. Look at how bad the caps were for years before McPhee and Leonsis got with the program had some luck (by some I mean a ridiculous amount) in the lottery and built a winner. People want to jump on the band wagon, you just have to give them a reason. That is unless they’re leafs fans.

by Schank on Nov 17, 2009 10:40 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

But, how do explain the fact that football teams sell out even when they suck? Or the fact that the Wild are still selling tickets, despite the fact that they missed the playoffs and will likely miss again this year?

The Wild are in a frenzied hockey market, for certain. Nine seasons in, and one deep play off run. Sell out streak should have ended long ago, but I would find it hard to believe they would pull less than 10000 for any number of games, even if they were really bad.

Not that the Panthers or Coyotes need to to sell out, I would even settle for pulling 10000 people. Announced crowds of sub 6K lately. Not good.

http://www.hockeywilderness.com

by BReynolds on Nov 17, 2009 11:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Football has only eight home games – shouldn’t be too hard to sell out eight games.

I personally think that many fans view the regular season as more than a prelude to the playoffs. Yes – it’s great to go to a game when the team is really playing well and making a playoff run. But I really love to watch the game throughout the season. It’s pretty pathetic that people don’t support their team when they aren’t playing well. Have some loyalty!

Also – MN is a great hockey market because youth hockey is like a giant feeder program for hockey fans. Kids get involved, parents/grandparents/siblings get interested in the game and people still jump at the chance to see the Wild play at the X.

by minnesotagirl71 on Nov 17, 2009 12:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Great point about youth hockey. Dallas invested in youth hockey when they got there, I think ANA did as well. The Caps’ rise has coincided with a huge rise in youth hockey in the area as well (as I understand it, but I don’t have kids and never looked at the numbers).

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 17, 2009 5:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Not all

There are several football teams who are struggling to sell out their games, and it’s causing the league’s “blackout” policy to come into effect. If a team doesn’t sell out its game, it gets blacked out on local TV. Two of those teams are among the absolute worst in the league: Oakland and Cleveland. Jacksonville is another.

Should the old (new?) “it’s the economy” argument be thrown into the ring? It’s almost certainly a factor but not the only one for sure. Another big reason, as mentioned before, is the product that’s being put out there. The Panthers and even the Lightning, apart from the 2004 Stanley Cup, haven’t been very competitive, and in some cases, badly mismanaged. They’ve done little to earn the respect of the residents in the area and less so to have earned their money.

As for the Wild selling out games still despite just one deep postseason run, I can suggest this: It doesn’t necessarily matter how far into the playoffs you get. Seems to me that fans, and even players, want their team to simply be competitive and make the playoffs, and from there, anything can happen. Minnesota just missed a postseason spot last year without its best player, and so there was reason for optimism that a playoff spot would be possible this season.

If a season like Minnesota’s current one continues not just this season for the next two or three, and sellouts continue, then I’ll … well, I won’t necessarily question what’s in the air up there. It can be a sign that the fans will support their team no matter what. That’s probably a good thing. It wouldn’t classify them as front-runners, fair-weather fans or bandwagoners.

by KiPA on Nov 17, 2009 3:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Guilt

We had an NHL team that left this market because fans quit going to games; I wouldn’t underestimate that impact on our ticket sales.

by SpaethCo on Nov 17, 2009 3:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I’m not going to say that there aren’t bandwagon Caps fans, or that it’s not extremely annoying going to games at the Verizon Center. But you are selling the Caps fans short to a degree. There are a lot of fans that went “dormant” during the last decade since the team collapsed following the ’98 Cup run. That goes back to the winning point. The Caps started winning and the fans came back.

Oh, and as to the “ridiculous amount” of luck… that guy was in the press box and the Caps still manhandled the Wild all night. One guy doesn’t make a franchise.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 17, 2009 5:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Sorry for the formatting

No idea what happened with the blog. Lots of white space in there, and the font looks weird. Sorry.

http://www.hockeywilderness.com

by BReynolds on Nov 17, 2009 11:16 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I fixed it

You copy/pasted from an Outlook email I think. No worries. It’s all good.

Proprietor of Hockey Wilderness - We take Minnesota hockey WAY too seriously.

by nathaneide on Nov 17, 2009 12:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What would I do without you?

I copied a line from Word and it messed up the whole thing. Won’t do it again.

http://www.hockeywilderness.com

by BReynolds on Nov 17, 2009 3:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Fighting words

Editor’s note: I am expecting an exemption for those fans that sit in the Club Level at the X. They have about as much hockey knowledge as my 16 month-old-daughter.

I’ve sat pretty much everywhere in the X, from the lower level, to the suites, to upper level, to my current season ticket spot in club. In any section of the arena you will universally find these elements:

1) Some guy explaining the rules to the person sitting next to him (not always female)
2) People engaging in betting games, usually centered around what second is on the clock when play stops
3) Some drunk guy who is yelling clever things like “Clutterbuck him!” usually when they 1st line is out on the ice.

Say what you will about club, but lower level sides are $86/seat, club level sides are $95/seat. For the extra $9:

1) I’ve never had to miss a play passing someone’s beer down the row
2) The concourse is open enough that you can walk the arena easily between periods
3) I’ve never had to look around a guy wearing a goal light helmet (part of that is being in row 1 of club)
4) Legroom. (again, row 1 factors in here)

by SpaethCo on Nov 17, 2009 11:54 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Leg room?

In the club level? Yes. That is due to the fact you are in row one. Any other seat in the area has enough room for a dwarven seven year old girl with anorexia.

As for not passing beers down the aisle… that’s because half the section sits at the bar until half way through the second period and then leaves with a ten minutes left in the third. The club level is for people who are entertaining clients.

I apologize for insulting you, as I know you have a more than fair mount of hockey knowledge. Still, the club level is filled to the brim with the exact opposite of you.

http://www.hockeywilderness.com

by BReynolds on Nov 17, 2009 12:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I don’t think that quote meant the Panthers were going to depend on traveling fans from other teams. The new owner meant that there are plenty of transplants that like hockey, and said transplants are more likely to go to a game when their original team is in town.

Even the non-transplant sports fans in South Florida are incredibly fickle with their attendence and support. The easiest way for the Panthers to start drawing fans is to win.

by Phalange on Nov 17, 2009 12:19 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Yes... but again...

Teams in traditional markets draw fans when they don’t win, too. So, the teams in Canada need to subsidize the Panthers for the majority of the time? Not every team can be the Red Wings. They cannot all have dynasty type teams. Teams are going to suck, and they are going to have periods of time where they suck for a long time.

The Panthers had a run to the Cup finals. They still didn’t, and don’t, draw fans. The Bolts have a Stanley Cup banner. They still don’t draw fans. The Avs have the best team in the West, and a handful of Cup victories. They still can’t break 10K.

Winning isn’t everything. Traditional markets aren’t the answer either. So… what now?

http://www.hockeywilderness.com

by BReynolds on Nov 17, 2009 12:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Contraction!?

Maybe the league has reached a saturation point where it realistically take two or three teams move them to back to Canada (Winnipeg, Toronto 2, or God Forbid Quebec City) and contract the rest. In theory it would increase the quality of the on ice product by condensing the talent pool. It would also save the league from giant money flushing toilets like Phoenix, Atlanta, and Florida. While this will never happen I think the interview on puck daddy touches on marketing, which is a huge problem for a lot teams locally. The league may have bitten off more than it can chew with some of the sun belt markets, crappy as it is for the fans in those areas.

by Schank on Nov 17, 2009 1:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Contraction is going to be a non-starter for owners and players. We can discuss it ad nauseum but I can’t see it happening.

Also, Quebec City and Winnipeg already lost teams. Why are they so much more deserving now than the other places?

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 17, 2009 5:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The ironic part about the Avs

.. is that they hold a sellout streak record of 487 consecutive games. How do you go from selling out every game for over a decade to not being able to clear 10k sold seats? Sure the Avs didn’t have the best season in 08-09, and they were predicted to be bottom-3 of the West this season.. but still, that’s a hell of a drop.

My first thought was this could be tied to the economy. Afterall, people without jobs don’t have a lot of spare cash for hockey tickets. In looking at the numbers though, Colorado is actually doing better than we are here in Minnesota:

http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=usunemployment&met=unemployment_rate&idim=state:ST270000&q=minnesota+unemployment+rate#met=unemployment_rate&idim=state:ST270000:ST080000:ST120000:ST040000:ST130000

The southern states of Florida, Atlanta, and Arizona are looking much worse.

by SpaethCo on Nov 17, 2009 2:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Heh, I meant to say the states of Florida, Georgia, and Arizona.

by SpaethCo on Nov 17, 2009 2:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

A lot of the Avs’ sell outs weren’t paid sell outs. They gave tons of tickets away. Now they have the opposite problem and have some of the most expensive tickets in the league when their team was a lotto finisher last year. Maybe if the wins keep coming the people will come back but they probably need to lower their ticket prices as well.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 17, 2009 5:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Bad example

With the Red Wings. Remember all the problems they’ve had with attendance in the very recent past (like last season.)

by KiPA on Nov 17, 2009 3:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed 100%

Issues selling out the Cup Finals games.

http://www.hockeywilderness.com

by BReynolds on Nov 17, 2009 3:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Game 7

Sounded like a home game for the Penguins at several points.

by KiPA on Nov 17, 2009 3:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Thank Brad Stuart

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 17, 2009 5:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

One thing I would look at is ownership. What is the inherent difference in trying to start a team in Phoenix or Dallas? Atlanta or Nashville or Carolina? The teams that are in trouble almost all have serious ownership issues; many of them also have terrible arena deals. Everyone loves the Penguins now but have we all forgotten how low their attendance was before the Crosby lotto (while we’re talking about luck) or how Mario had to save them from a rotten ownership situation and then fight for a new arena? Obviously winning was a huge point but if you don’t have good owners and arenas it’s really hard to survive economically now.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 17, 2009 5:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The Panthers had a run to the Cup finals 13 years ago. They haven’t made the playoffs in close to a decade.

“Teams in traditional markets draw fans when they don’t win, too.” – Erroneous. Look at attendence figures for Chicago and Boston in the early part of the decade.

“So, the teams in Canada need to subsidize the Panthers for the majority of the time?” – Weren’t the Oilers being subsidized by the other teams in the league a while ago? The NHL isn’t supposed to subsidize teams in the south that don’t draw well, but they were supposed to subsidize teams in Winnipeg, Hartford, and Quebec City that couldn’t draw enough corporate sponsorships and arena deals?

by Phalange on Nov 18, 2009 9:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Fair points

All teams are going to suffer poor attendance if the team stinks for long enough. Nature of the beast. However, people still attended games in Chicago and Boston. There was no question that there were still hockey fans in the area. There was no question if the fans would show up if the team showed even the slightest sign of life. Is the case the same in Florida? If the Panthers were just over .500 and in position to make the playoffs, would the building be sold out? I bet it would be in Chicago and Boston.

Yes, Edmonton was subsidized by the NHL for a few years. Florida, Tampa, and Phoenix have been subsidized by the league for every year of their existence, save for a few. Notice though, the teams that you listed at the end of your point all don’t exist anymore. So, maybe not the best examples to use.

http://www.hockeywilderness.com

by BReynolds on Nov 18, 2009 12:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I mentioned Hartford, Quebec, and Winnipeg because many people seem to think it’d be a great idea to move teams out of the south BACK into those area, as if that would solve the problem of teams suckling on the NHL’s revenue teat.

I’m not really sure that revenue sharing/subsidizing/etc is really a bad thing…it helps in the NFL. Would the Packers be able to survive if they weren’t getting a share of the NFL’s massive TV revenues?

by Phalange on Nov 19, 2009 7:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

As an Atlanta fan ...

I see a situation that is similar. Most Thrashers fans once began as fans of other teams (and most still remain loyal to those said teams). They’ve moved South from Philly and Detroit, New York and Chicago where they were brought up on hockey. That’s really what provided the core fan base here. Hockey love is hockey love – if you love hockey, you adapt in your new environment.

Here are the biggest peeves I have when it comes to “outsiders” dissecting my hockey market.

1 – I laugh over the short memories people have of when Ottawa, Pittsburgh, and Buffalo all went through relatively recent struggles. Bettman and the NHL doesn’t just go to bat for the non-traditional markets nor are financial and attendance problems limited to Southern teams.

2 – Attendance is always talked about as the decider in whether or not a franchise can be viable but the true measuring stick is availability of corporate money – sponsorships, naming rights, advertising partners, purchasers of suites and blocks of prime season tickets. To my outside understanding, that is what nearly sunk Nashville – it wasn’t lack of fan support so much as lack of corporate support. It is also, again to my outside understanding, why Winnipeg or Quebec won’t be getting new teams any time soon – they lack the corporate fundage necessary. It is also why Atlanta is considered a major market to the NHL – lots and lots of corporate money available here.

3 – Sometimes it’s just about a measure of approach. I’ll be honest – down here we think Toronto Maple Leafs fans are complete and utter morons for continuing to sell out that arena to watch crappy hockey (relatively speaking). You feed the pockets of MLSE and get nothing in return. Down here, we want something in return for investments of money, time, and passion. We don’t go to hockey games to make a group of businessmen rich – we go to support our team and to have a good time. Getting your butt whipped on the ice constantly in your own barn does not = a good time. So instead, we (as a collective term) stay home and keep our money in our pockets and essentially tell the owners and management that if they want our money back, they are going to have to prove they deserve it. In Atlanta’s case, a significant jump in team payroll was that proof. Winning also helps. There is something to be said by sticking by your team through rough patches. But there is also something to be said for demanding owners and management do right by that team as well.

4 – Markets take time to grow. How long has hockey existed in Canada? Hundred+ years – yet in many US markets we’re talking barely over a decade with an NHL team. It takes raising the better part of a generation on hockey to really see a major impact. Hockey is growing here – so many people play the sport now compared to 10-15 years ago. Most people often don’t even realize how many professional hockey teams exist in the state of Georgia (hint – it’s more than one, more than two even). It’s as much a grassroots process as it is an on-ice success process.

The main thing I’ve learned from being in Atlanta and watching other markets from afar is that often it’s too easy to make rash, unfounded judgements when you don’t live there and understand specific market nuances. Phx struggles, much as I can tell, because of arena location, among other issues. Nashville struggled due to lack of corporate support. Atlanta struggles because Atlanta sports consumers are extremely discerning about how they spend money. I’d just say, don’t be too quick to make assumptions about a market’s viability without really talking to and listening to those who know the market best – the fans who live there.

by WINGZ_25 on Nov 17, 2009 1:49 PM CST reply actions 2 recs

Excellent post, thank you.

Now.

1. Outsiders are always going to dissect your market. It is what people do when teams don’t do well financially. Especially in the NHL with all of the talk of contraction. I don;t want the Panthers to go away. I want it to grow there, and in Atlanta. You guys were especially screwed by management, so I understand some bitterness about it. I did not, and do not, want the post to turn into a call for Southern teams to go away. I wanted to explore what it would take to get fans in the seats, as winning does not always equal sold tickets, and winning does not happen every year. If the team wins one year and sells out every game, and then has a bad year due to injuries, they should just lose $20 million? That is not a very good business model, and the team will eventually be forced to leave to stop losing money.

2. You are correct in the corporate support thing. It is the new way to decide if a city gets a franchise or not, and it has a hell of a lot to do with the financial success of a team. But let me ask you this. Why would a corporation support a team and pay money to advertise with them if there are no fans to advertise to? If there are not 15000 people in the building, their advertising money is best left for other uses.

3. Leafs fans are crazy loyal. Losing or not they go. They pay money because they love the game, and they love their team. That is admirable, not stupid. They demand more of their team and the management than any other fan base, save for Montreal. Read the blogs and newspaper articles. The team could win the Cup, and the management would still be in trouble about something.

4. Time to grow? How long will it take? Ten years? 20? 50? How long, in today’s world, can the NHL and the teams wait for it to catch on?

Please, do not take any of this offensively. Not the objective. OK? OK.

http://www.hockeywilderness.com

by BReynolds on Nov 17, 2009 3:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Leafs = Cubs

Maple Leafs fans are like baseball’s Chicago Cubs’ fans. They go just to go. In the Cubs’ case, it’s a chance to take a day off work, since Chicago plays so many afternoon games, and just get drunk.

by KiPA on Nov 17, 2009 3:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

How long?

I’d say you have to give them at least 20. The people that were toddlers when Gretzky went to LA are just turning 20 now. They mostly don’t have kids, but when they do they’ll raise their kids on hockey. Maybe you’ve seen it, but this is an interesting take on the growth of hockey and the plight of the fans in California. Strong ties and franchise traditions build through years of experience. Parents grow up watching a team and then raise their kids on that team. Ten years is not realistic, IMO. (And 50 is surely way too long but I think you knew that.)

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 17, 2009 5:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

To this day, some friends and I sometimes joke about how there are more people outside Gate 3 of the Igloo watching playoff games on the big screen they set up than there were during some of the recent seasons. And I joke about formerly being able to do some deep, introspective thinking during a Penguins game because it was so quiet.

That reinforces the thinking that really, winning matters. A lot. Who would want to spend money on a product they know is inferior to other products (one team compared to seven others)? Why waste your money when you think you’re not going to enjoy the game because your team isn’t any good?

by KiPA on Nov 17, 2009 3:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Really well said

The way you describe Leafs fans makes me think of Cubs fans. I’m also curious as to what the Atlanta ‘Hawks attendance looks like. They haven’t been a threat in recent years as far as I can tell (though I don’t follow the NBA). Logically that means they should have suffering attendance, but I suspect that’s not the case.

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 17, 2009 5:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Fair Enough

I think those are excellent points. It is true that the NHL propped up the Canadian franchises when the Dollar was killing them. That is exactly the reason why Bettman is standing with the southern markets. The one thing that the Phoenix debacle has forced the NHL to reveal is just how bad the finances are in some of those markets. There is no longer any way to sugar coat it. Comparatively the money lost now ,as opposed to then, is a substantially higher amount. I agree with Budda’s comments, having lived to see the North Stars leave. I would not wish it on anybody. But the financial reality of Florida, $20M in the red a year, isn’t sustainable. The NHL is not the NFL, where teams move to make more money and not to stop the bleeding. If the NHL had someone banging down the door to get their TV rights it might be a different story. Until that happens the league’s primary revenue source will be fan attendance. I’m just not sure how long they can hold on in a market with little or slowly growing demand and a struggling team.

by Schank on Nov 17, 2009 2:44 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

It is true that the NHL propped up the Canadian franchises when the Dollar was killing them.

Right, the Dollar was killing them. Fan attendance and merchandise sales were thriving. It was that stupid Dollar. Obviously the Dollar didn’t help, but let’s not pretend that the fan bases didn’t act the same way fan bases everywhere acted. They stopped going when the team stunk (and even OTT couldn’t stay afloat when they were good).

If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...

by Fehr and Balanced on Nov 17, 2009 5:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What would it take to get fans in the seats at Panther's games?

Free lap dances from the Ice Girls. Problem solved.

by Phalange on Nov 18, 2009 9:16 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I'm in.

Instant season ticket holder. ;-)

http://www.hockeywilderness.com

by BReynolds on Nov 18, 2009 12:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Just found this blog, so I suppose I’m a newbie.

But as far as attendance at some of the places (including but limited to only the southern markets), does anyone think that the lockout has had any impact on attendance drops or difficulty in getting people to the games in the newer southern markets?

I know for me, personally, it did have an impact. I loved hockey from the time I was about 6 or 7. I grew up in Northern Ohio and grew up watching the NHL on ESPN, ESPN2 and Fox… all the teams were on at some point. I also remember as a kid listening to the Canadiens Stanley Cup run of 93 on the radio in bed (it was a station out of southern Canada that we picked up in French, but I listened anyway). I played hockey for years. I went to Blue Jackets games when they came to Columbus and had a blast.

I literally watched any game on TV that I could. I didn’t care about who was on, I just loved the sport. Not very many people around me understood my obsession, let alone the sport itself in Ohio.

However, when the lockout came around, I obviously had no hockey to watch. It aggravated me that hockey was gone. It seemed to just go on and on too. Eventually, I said to heck with it. By the time hockey came back, I wouldn’t say I had moved on, but I sort of left it by the wayside.

It wasn’t until I moved to Duluth, MN last fall that the obsession came back. I think it was moving to an area where hockey is everywhere and so easily accessible that it took to bring me back to it. You can’t find games so easily on TV anymore after the lockout. But when I came up to Minnesota for work over a year ago, it was everywhere.

I’ve since gone to several Wild games (who have become my second most beloved team now), I’ve purchased the Center Ice package to get my fix of hockey games and I’ve gotten back into playing the sport. Other than a 2 or 3 year hiatus because of the lockout, I’m right back to where I was with the sport all through my life.

I just have to wonder if any of the southern markets have been hit like my own personal experience. Those markets are rather new when you think about it and it seemed that the lockout came just after the time hockey began to reach its peak. It’s hard to watch on TV anymore unless you are willing to pony up the money for a sports package on your cable (either for expanded packages for the FSN networks or VS or the Center Ice pack). Unlike my move to Minnesota where I could easily find it, it has to be the opposite in the southern markets where hockey isn’t nearly as readily available.

I understand that it isn’t the only reason, or even the main on, as to why some markets seem to struggle. But I can’t help but think that the effect of the lockout (and since then the lack of hockey being easily seen on TV, etc) has surely contributed to continued lack of growth in some markets.

by RocketAlum07 on Nov 18, 2009 10:51 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Sure it did.

Casual sports fans are always alienated by a work stoppage. Whiny millionaires fighting with whiny billionaires about where the money should go.

http://www.hockeywilderness.com

by BReynolds on Nov 18, 2009 12:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Still no answer to the question...

Is Florida a hockey market?

Can it work? Should it work? How can it work? The team is not always going to win. That cannot be the answer.

http://www.hockeywilderness.com

by BReynolds on Nov 18, 2009 12:26 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I lived in Tampa for a while, and I can tell you that it genuinely is a hockey market. And don’t believe the myth that it’s the Canadian Snowbirds that’s propping the team up, either, because that’s just not true. I was at training camp there a couple of years ago, and all you saw were people under 40 and kids. And, the place was packed, too. As for hockey games, it’s pretty much the same deal – mostly white-collar professionals, families, and college students in the stands.

The Tampa-area high schools have ice hockey teams. There’s a US Junior C team that plays there from the Southeast Junior Hockey League. And people know and love the Lightning. They’re not just some random niche team, but a full-fledged member of the highest professional sports community in the eyes of the average Tampa area resident. The fans coming in for spring baseball don’t even increase regular attendance numbers because those fans aren’t there to watch hockey.

Are they having attendence issues? Of course they are. The’ve been in 29th and 30th place the last two seasons in the NHL. Who wants to go watch a losing and dysfunctional team? And the economy has hit fans hard there, too, just like everyone else. But taking hockey out of Tampa at this point would be like taking hockey out of Buffalo.

Raw Charge, an SBN Tampa Bay Lightning community. Calling shotgun in the clown car.

by Cassie McClellan on Nov 19, 2009 10:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Owning Up?

Protracted ownership issues alienate fans and community support and are far more damaging in the long run, IMHO, than losing. How has the lightning’s ownership troubles helped attendance? It hasn’t. It attracts negative press, creates mistrust, and breeds suspicion of said owner’s motives. We’ve established people generally want a band wagon to jump on, but they want a solid commitment to their communities. I think the NHL has really screwed the pooch in terms of how many franchises were moved, how often, and, not to mention, how it is perceived by the public. More then 30,000 people protested the Jets leaving Winnipeg. Then to move the teams into disadvantaged situations in their new markets (Hello Phoenix). It really makes the NHL look amazingly stupid. Additionally, I can’t believe that they allow some of the people to own franchises that do. Don’t get me wrong, Jim Basille doing an end run is by no means the way to own a franchise, but at least he didn’t have a rap sheet. I also think the tease act by Bettman to the Canadian cities isn’t helping his struggling markets. People look at that and say my team is struggling and he’s talking about putting a team back… Way to undermine your own efforts.

Finally, the answer to the question is maybe. A new ownership tandem, similar as it may be to the old tandem, will bring some patience and hope. The one key decision that landed the Capitals in relevance again was not drafting Ovie, but signing him to his billion year contract when he was still too young to rent a car. Everyone knew he was the greatest play of the post lockout era. They didn’t know if he would stay or if they ownership would pay to keep him. The thing was the ownership demonstrated it’s commitment to the team and to the process of building a contender. Ted Leonsis put his neck out and told his season ticket holders that it was going to lean and tough, but it would work out. They had some awful years but delivered. If the Panthers, new owners and all, can follow that model and have a little luck they’ll make it. If they continue to plod along you’ll see the return of Nordiques or perhaps the Scouts (read: Sprint Center). Of course it would also help if the economy turned around.

by Schank on Nov 19, 2009 10:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs