Gonchar vs Clutterbuck: Let the Debate Begin
Anyone who watched last night's tilt against the Penguins got to see an example of the type of hit that the NHL says it is against. In the third period, Penguins defenseman Sergei Gonchar hit Wild forward Cal Clutterbuck in the head, earning Gonchar a five minute major for interference.
What we did not have last night was video. Today we do. So, let's look at the video and have it out. Before we make the jump and start the debate, please try to keep this civil. Obviously this is a Wild blog, and I trust I know what most of you are thinking. Still, try not to go too far off the reservation.
First, here is the video:
At the 32 second mark, we get a pretty good look at it.
Another angle is included in a more lengthy highlight reel from the game. Find it HERE.
I am doing my best to put on my objectivity hat here, because I have firends on both sides of the aisle on this one. Looking at it, objectively, it looks like a dirty hit. Clutterbuck does not have the puck, and is behind the play. Fedotenko has the puck closer to the corner, and Clutterbuck moves in between Fedotenko and Gonchar, with Fedotenko making a play to move the puck back toward the corner.
Clutterbuck looks like he sees Fedotenko make the play, despite Fedotenko missing the bouncing puck, and Clutterbuck pulls up on the hit he is about to lay on Fedotenko. A split second later, after Clutterbuck is turning up the boards, and before he can even turn his head, Gonchar's forearm is squarely in Clutterbuck's face.
Now, some last night, and still today are saying Gonchar launched himself into Clutterbuck. I get into this debate every time there is a hit like this, and I still don't see it. Gonchar's skates leave the ice, sure, but not until Clutterbuck is going down to the ice. Inertia carries Gonchar down with Clutterbuck.
Gonchar does however, most definitely target Clutterbuck's head. There is no question there, is there? Gonchar most certainly hits Clutterbuck behind the play, and is targeting him while he is not looking at Gonchar, but instead looking at the puck carrier. Can we agree on that? Doubtful, but it certainly looks that way to me.
Looking over a handful of Philadelphia Flyers blogs or Washington Caps blogs would garner the opinion that Gonchar is a dirty player. I will save that judgment for others to make. He has never been suspended, at least from what I can find (please post any corrections to that in the comments).
Gonchar also looks to not be pleased with himself as he goes to the box. Does that forgive the hit? No, but he shows remorse immediately. Could be that he was sorry he put his team on a five minute penalty kill while down by one in the third period. Or it could be that he truly felt sorry for making the hit. Until we invent the machine that reads thoughts, we will never really know.
We have now reviewed the hit, and I have broken it down a bit, from my perspective. Let me now tell you what I feel will happen.
Absolutely nothing. Look at Down Goes Brown's NHL Suspension Flow Chart.
He has the superstar effect in play. Is he Alexander Ovechkin or Sidney Crosby? No, he isn't. But he is still a superstar. Hockey fans across the country know who he is, and that makes him a star.
He has never been suspended before.
Case closed.
Gonchar got a five minute major penalty. They did not assess him a game misconduct, nor a match penalty. Could they have? It's a judgment call, but I think the gamer would have been called for here. Match penalty assumes intent to injure, which can be debated all day, but we do not truly know. It certainly was retaliatory, targeted the head, and came away from the play.
If the league is serious (I almost got that out with a straight face) about removing head shots, they would hand Gonchar a suspension. I would say two games to match the suspension of Ovechkin earlier in the year. At least one game is warranted.
The odds of him being suspended are not good. More likely he gets a stern talking to from Colin Campbell.
OK, here we go. Hockey Wilderness readers, PensBurgh readers, and all other comers. What say you?
1. Dirty hit?
2. Should Gonchar be suspended?
3. Does Gonchar get suspended? (If so, how many games?)
One other twist I forgot to include is the quote from Clutterbuck to Russo last night:
"He better hope he retires at the end of the year, I'll tell you that," Clutterbuck said, a cut on the bridge of his nose. "Somebody's going to hurt him before the end of the year. Someone will. It's not going to be me, but someone will."
Not sure I agree with the sentiment, but he was probably pretty heated at that point. Probably should have saved his feelings for today, but anyone who has ever talked to the guy knows, he just isn't going to do that.
-Buddha
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As far as the questions go:
It was dirty
He should be suspended
I don’t think the league will suspend him
As far as Clutterbucks comments, I don’t get them. Why would someone else, not on the Wild, go after Gonchar for that hit?
Not sure about that either. Reading them, he may have been hinting (with the retirement crack) that someone from the Wild would hurt him next season. It kind of has a “my brother is going to beat you up” vibe to it. Which is unfortunate.
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nope. Monday’s game wrapped up the home and home for the season.
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I hope.....
he was talking about the league hurting him financially with a suspension.
Dirty hit. Bottom Line.
A quick comment. Cal’s had something like 500 hits in the past year. How many of them could be classified as “dirty”. My guess is less than 5. Some might be a bit late, and that’s unexcuseable, as I’m sure he would agree. But I don’t see him hitting dirty like this more than 5 times in the past calendar year.
To answer the question:
1. Dirty hit? Yes, yes, and yes. Leading with the elbow is not okay. I would say if it was shoulder to shoulder, he’s okay.
2. Should Gonchar be suspended? Yes.
3. Does Gonchar get suspended? (If so, how many games?) Yes, 2 games, no more, perhaps just one. But I guess 2.
Correction.
I meant to say I don’t see Cal delivering a dirty hit like this more than 5 times in the past year, simply because of his huge number of hits, some of them statisticly had to have been “technically” dirty. Not because he intended them to be dirty. Gonchar was retaliating with an elbow, an intentional dirty hit, not a clean shoulder hit retaliation (like Clutter would retaliate with).
If Jovonoski
can Get suspended twice in the same season, a 10-15 games apart for head shots, then no Gonchar wont get anymore than 2 games.
I just find it funny that so many accross the Puck Daddy commenators hate with a capital H-A-T-E, Cal Clutterbuck. Why? He’s a great player, he hits hard, but he hits clean. He’s fun to watch, probably not that much fun to play against though.
Not to mention some of his quotes are priceless.
He's a pest
He gets other players to take stupid penalties because they react to him running his mouth in combination with his physical play. That’s awesome if you’re a Wild fan (Cal’s one of my favorites on the team!), but you can see where it would annoy other team’s fans.
I don’t think he’s quite an Avery or an Ott, but he’s definitely the kind of player that you could hate if he’s not on your team. Even more so if you only catch the highlights of Wild games on NHL on the Fly and not the complete game he puts in.
Ditto
Dirty hit
Should suspend him.
I think they will.
I’ll buy the inertia arguement. It looks like a launch at first, but I suppose he may be going down with the fall.
Okay, I don’t really think the NHL will suspend him. Sure would be nice, though.
Dirty, yes, no. Regardless of targeting the head he destroyed a guy who had no idea it was coming and was not part of the play. Then you add the elbow to the head and it’s tough to justify any of it. Still, the NHL will look at the 5 he got and conclude that it’s enough.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
Looking over a handful of Philadelphia Flyers blogs or Washington Caps blogs would garner the opinion that Gonchar is a dirty player.
Who said that? I don’t think Gonchar has a repuation for physical play at all, because he’s not really done anything questionable in all the games I remember him in. He’s never been suspended (to my knowledge) and usually isn’t involved in these situations.
You come at the king, you best not miss.
It was more a generalization of the hatred between your team and theirs.
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Hatred between teams, yes. But even they wouldn’t say Gonchar’s dirty. Cooke, yes. Orpik, maybe. Gonchar? He’d be about the last name mentioned.
You come at the king, you best not miss.
I’d like to see Gonchar be more physical than he is. Obviously not with a dirty hit by any means, but if Flyers and Caps blogs are saying he’s a dirty player I’d really like to see some evidence.
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When I was searching for video last night, this was the first site that popped up, so I checked around for video. There was none until today.
The comments I saw last night and today are like I said. Please, keep in mind I do not agree with them. I was making the point that Philly fans hate the Pens, so Gonchar is going to be called dirty.
So, here is one comment from that site:
Gonchar is on my list of players I want to see have his teeth knocked out. Just like Malkin, he’s a dirty, cheap, peice of shit and he always seems to get away with it. Add Kovalev to that list too.
The site is called “”http://www.flyersphans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132649&page=3" >FlyersPhans" and the comment was made in a forum, not a blog.
http://www.hockeywilderness.com
Wow. Stupid html.
this is the direct link:
http://www.flyersphans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132649&page=3
http://www.hockeywilderness.com
FlyerPhans is a haven for the tin-foil crowd that thinks the league (Buttman) is a huge Pens fan and gave the team Crosby, Malkin, and ultimately the Cup last year.
However, Gonchar buttended Scott Hartnell late last season. It was a retaliatory hit after “Fartsmell” (as we Pens fans call him) took some liberties. Hartnell followed Gonchar behind the net and Gonchar used his nose as a cue ball, so to speak.
But Gonchar, all in all, is not a dirty player.
by DigitalGypsy66 on Jan 12, 2010 2:17 PM CST up reply actions
I’d really like to know what he’s basing it off of. I’m not saying he couldn’t have a point, but I’d like to know what his basis is. Malkin and Gonchar have always performed well against the Flyers. There’s a chance Malkin is in that context because he has slew-footed a player or two on the Flyers, so I can see that. But I’d also like to see what he’s getting away with that wasn’t called or penalized.
As far as I can remember, I don’t think either Gonchar or Malkin were under any scrutiny for any hit on any member of the Flyers. I thought they were too focused on hating Chris Kunitz, who may have a better nomination than any because of his physical play. Many Flyers fans are still bitter about his hit on Timmonen during the playoffs last year because Timmonen was playing hurt. Ultimately it was Timmonen’s risk to take to do so, don’t ya think?
But seeing as how it came from a forum, chances are the poster played hooky from his grade school today just to sit home and write unjustified comments about how deserving Gonchar and Malkin are of having their teeth knocked out.
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I’m goin to back you up here Frank. I don’t see how either Malkin or Gonchar is “dirty”. Yeah, Malkin has been known to slew foot and swing his stick at people’s heads, but I honestly wouldn’t call him dirty. Maybe a little crazy, but all the good athletes are a little crazy.
I also second your opinion on Chris Kunitz. I can’t stand him, even though I’d probably love to have him on my team.
As far as your comment below, I’d still argue that Richards on Booth wasn’t “dirty”. Adjectives I would use include reckless and dangerous, let alone a selfish example of players looking to make the big hit rather than the effective check. But I’m a homer, and that’s me nitpicking.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 12, 2010 7:41 PM CST up reply actions
Heh good athletes going crazy is a good way of putting it. That was obvious tonight Ovechkin almost dropped the mitts with your former buddy Steve Downie.
But thanks for confirming a more reputable Flyers angle on the topic. I knew I wouldn’t have to hate you guys as much as I felt obligated to. ;-)
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And I’d also like to add that, coming from a fan base that denied Richards’ hit on Booth (that ultimately rendered him unconscious and unable to play hockey for months) as being dirty, can hardly talk about what’s dirty and what’s not.
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Yes, a delivering a shoulder to a players chest without leaving your feet is much dirtier than leaving your feet to give an elbow to a players head. That post made about as much sense as the NHL’s justice system.
by You don't have to be sweet, to be good on Jan 12, 2010 9:11 PM CST up reply actions
I guess it’s still a perception thing. But then again, the one agreeing with me here is a Wild fan. The one disagreeing with me is, surprise!, a Flyers fan.
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Certainly was charging, but the elbow didn’t look intentional, clutterbuck is stooped over pretty low as he spins around, no way gonchar intended it to play out that way. Leaving his feet happened after the hit connected. He was sending a message for sure, but the 5 minute is about right. He wasn’t injured, so there was no game misconduct, and likely won’t be a suspension. Clutterbuck’s hit on Gonchar before that was just as bad, he’s just not big enough to take Gonchar out when he’s standing up.
And sorry, but if Clutterbuck has 5ish dirty hits, then screw him if he gets one back. Nobody cried when Duncan Keith elbowed Matt Cooke in the head when he wasn’t looking because Cooke was fresh off suspension for doing the same thing. Reap what you sow.
Forgot to add
little ol Cal is lucky Orpik was out. Gonchar’s hit looks like a kiss compared to what Orpik would’ve layed on him.
well no body cried when Cooke got
elbowed b/c everyone hates Cooke, Cheap ass cry baby who dives all the time (like last night when Johnsson “high sticked” him) , but when asked to answer the bell he runs and hides. Clutterbuck’s hit on Gonchar 10-15 seconds prior to the hit wasnt late, didnt leave his feet, didnt use his Elbow, so how was Clutterbucks hit Dirty? Did Gonchar intend to injure Clutter, no, probably not, but he could have, seriously injured him. Players need to learn how to hit. to many times, even if they dont intend to, they lead with arms and fists and elbows instead of Shoulders. Just think if Scott Stevens was still playing, how many people would be in the ICU b/c of his devastating SHOULDER checks?
I don’t doubt that it was a dirty hit. I think it’s really hard to argue with that. But as I’ve said in Pensburgh post-game comments, I know Minny fans are big enough fans of the sport to know that Gonchar doesn’t have a reputation as being a dirty player. You don’t go this long in the league and become one overnight either. The entire incident is unfortunate, mainly because it’s pretty obvious Gonchar was acting out of character.
I was a bit surprised that he didn’t get a misconduct, to be honest. But again, he doesn’t have that sort of reputation. I’d even bet that this is one of the first, if not only times, Gonchar was involved in a situation like this. So if there is no suspension because of it a lot of people will say he passed through the NHL wheel of justice. He’s not a repeat offender, so I do believe if anything he will get a fine. Max suspension, if any, possibly three games.
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Three games? I thought two was pushing it.
I am with you, Gonchar is not a dirty player. No reputation as such as far as I have heard. Asking Philly fans, we may get another opinion, as I said, but Koivu is a dirty player to Canucks fans, so you have to take it with a huge grain of salt.
I really think the shot if him skating over and climbing into the box tells a lot. He shook his head and looked up like “What the hell did I do that for?” He was sorry the second he did it, I think.
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Sorry he did it or regretful of the dumb penalty and the 5 minutes (instead of two) he’d be sitting in the box? I’m obviously playing Devil’s advocate against my favorite team’s player, but I don’t doubt he regretted the hit on more than one level.
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Well, that’s what I put in the post up above. He may have just been upset at himself for putting the Pens down a man for 5 when they were down by 1 in the third.
I want to hope it was him showing remorse for the entire thing.
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It definitely was a dirty hit, and he should be suspended. I say he gets nothing, though.
Clutterbuck, however, is being a tool for his comments. As an agitator, it’s astonishing that he thinks that somehow he’s not a target for retaliation. Also, I doubt that anyone else in the NHL is sympathetic with him; if anything, I’m sure they were happy to see him get his bell rung.
I’m not sure what the debate is about — it was a stupid, late, cheap shot. Almost as moronic as Clutterbuck’s vendetta comments.
No suspension, but probably a phone call from Colin Campbell as a first time offender.
I’m not clear on this, but was Cal talking about a vendetta, or the thought that Gonchar will do things like this again and the retaliation (from anywhere in the league) will brutal?
by NorthStar555 on Jan 12, 2010 2:23 PM CST up reply actions
if Ovechkin gets a suspension for a knee on knee WITHOUT intent to injure…Gonchar gets a suspension for a headshot WITH intent to injure. enough said.
How dare you?
Apply logic to the Wheel of Justice? Are you mad?
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by nathaneide on Jan 12, 2010 3:47 PM CST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Oh, yeah. No intent to injure there. I’m sure they just somehow lost Ovechkin’s Lady Byng trophy in the mail.
Not winning a Lady Byng doesn’t mean you try to hurt people. The vast majority of players never come close to winning that trophy and the vast majority of players aren’t dirty. AO won’t ever win that award, and it’s one of the reasons his fans love him so much. That doesn’t mean he goes out to hurt people as the haters would have people believe.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
A player could lose the Lady Byng and take nothing except good penalties. Hooking a guy to prevent a 3-0 break kind of penalties.
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It was dirty, but I don’t think intentional. The Game is played a such a high speed that you have milliseconds to change something. he started in thinking Clutterbuck might get the puck in the corner and turn it up ice, obviously, that didnt happen, but Gonchar was coming in to make a play, and it turned out to be the wrong play.
Lokking at it over and over, it looks more like Clutterbuck sees the hit at the last second, and Gonchar would have hit him with a shoulder, but b/c clutter is shorter, turning on the play, gonchar gets him with the elbow. look at the 38 second mark, original contact is with the bicept, not the elbow. Dont get me wrong, I dont like the play, and I think he should be suspended. but Gonchar wont be, and I wont be disappointed if that’s the case.
after watching the video
I voted with instant emotion and voted 5 game suspension. but having had time to think about it, the hit was bad, it was dirty, but Gonchar is not a dirty player, and after reviewing it my head it was not as bad as it initially looked. up to 2 game suspension should be more then enough, gonchar has been around to know he did something wrong, if he doesn’t get suspended, I would not be terribly disappointed, since he isnt a dirty player, but I do think the league needs to start sending a message, clean up the game a little, so that players don’t get needlessly hurt.
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Clarifying Clutterbuck
“He better hope he retires at the end of the year, I’ll tell you that,” Clutterbuck said, a cut on the bridge of his nose. “Somebody’s going to hurt him before the end of the year. Someone will. It’s not going to be me, but someone will.”
Allow me to translate this into “words” and [thought] for you:
“He better hope he retires at the end of the year, I’ll tell you that [because next year I will play him again] Sombody’s [I am] going to hurt him before the end of the year [I wish I could, please someone, do it for me]. Someone will [me]. It’s not going to be me [I can’t come out and threaten him on national television] but someone will [It’s going to be me the first chance I get].”
He’s not being a pansy. He’s just trying really hard to sift out his rage and make his future murder 1 case look like a murder 2 or 3.

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