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Rick Rypien: What Now?

The Rick Rypien incident here at X has got to be the biggest story of the young season. Is it on par with the Ilya Kovachuk debacle on summer? No, it isn't, but it is still a very big deal. This is not new ground for the NHL, but it is certainly new ground in this NHL.

By "this" NHL I mean that it is new for Gary Bettman, and it is new in the post "sloppy seconds" world in which PR means more to the NHL than player safety. This is a huge event, and a huge story, so it is time Hockey Wilderness goes on the record. We have presented "our" case on Twitter, and in the comment section, but it was time to both put our position in writing, and to debunk some of the defenses being used.

Make the jump, will you?

Star-divide

If you don't know what happened, you need to get out from under your rock. Check out the original post here at HW, and today's Walk for all the details.

The comment sections both here at Hockey Wilderness and over at Nucks Misconduct seem to be filled with a generally rational group of people. I have yet to read a comment that says he will not be suspended. This shows that the average fan on SBN is probably a bit ahead of the curve over the average fan. Twitter is a different story altogether.

Let's get something straight here, before moving on. The rules of the game were broken, to this, I hope no one is offering debate. Rule 23.7 reads:

"Any player, goalkeeper or non-playing Club personnel who physically interferes with the spectators, becomes involved in an altercation with a spectator, or throws any object at a spectator, shall automatically incur a game misconduct penalty and the Referee shall report all such infractions to the Commissioner who shall have full power to impose such further penalty as he shall deem appropriate."

Yet another vague, far reaching rule for the commish. In most cases, I detest these. In this case, I hope the commissioner uses it to his full advantage.

For some comparrison, let's look at the rule for assulting a referee. Rule 40 spells out different penalties for different levels of infraction, the worst being this:

40.2 Automatic Suspension – Category I - Any player who deliberately strikes an official and causes injury or who deliberately applies physical force in any manner against an official with intent to injure, or who in any manner attempts to injure an official shall be automatically suspended for not less than twenty (20) games. (For the purpose of the rule, "intent to injure" shall mean any physical force which a player or goalkeeper knew or should have known could reasonably be expected to cause injury.)

I go with the worst case because of "intent to injure." Can anyone really argue that Rypien intended only to give this fan a hug? So... if abuse of an official gets someone 20 games, where does that put the line for attacking a fan? I would say the minimum has to be on an equal footing with abuse of an official. It makes no sense to put the safety of the fans at less than that of the officials.

Fans should be more protected than anyone in the building. They are the paying customer, the only... repeat ONLY reason this league exists. If the fans become open to attack, the league is in the toilet.

Let's look at the break down in the poll presented by Nathan in the original poll:

One to Five games: There is no way this sends a message, especially to a player like Rypien, who likely has stretches of the season where he sits for five games just for being a crappy player. To send a message, this has to make an impact both on the player, and on the team.

Six to Ten games: We are approaching the realm of reality here. While I feel it should be higher, this could well be where the Wheel of Justice lands. Sad, really, if the league puts the safety of its fans below that of those on the ice.

11 to 15 games: Getting warmer, but even 15 games is not enough to send the clear and pointed message that needs to be sent. Fifteen games without your enforcer. Oh no. Call up some other meat head from Manitoba.

16-20 games: Now we're talking. Most players don't need this lesson, let's be clear on that. However, those that do need it hammered home in one concise message. 20 games is a minimum to me.

20+ games: If it's me? Rypien is gone at least half the season, and he undergoes some kind of anger management counseling. There absolutely must be a line drawn between fans and players. No physical interaction. None. Zero. If the fan reached over and hit Rypien, he would be ejected, and likely asked to never come back. Why should it be different for the player?

Defenses:

Let's look at a couple of the defenses floating around for Rypien.

  • The "It wasn't that bad" defense. This one is being put forward by many Canucks fans on Twitter, by Damien Cox in Toronto, and by people who simply don't understand what is at stake here. There is no right for a player to touch a fan without provocation. When I say "provocation" I don't mean that the fan made a mean comment. That's part of being in the NHL, pal. However, if a fan smacks him, hits him, jumps him... beat the tar out of him. What Ti Domi did to the fan in the penalty box was acceptable. What Rypien did was not. Disappointingly, Puck Daddy falls under this category.
  • The "It's Because he is A Canuck" defense. Here is my take. If this was Derek Boogaard, in a Wild sweater, assaulting a fan in Vancouver... I would call for an end to his career. No place for this defense. I don't care what sweater he was wearing. Anyone with even a shade of objectivity knows this defense is pure bunk. The question comes easily. "What if the roles were reversed?'
  • The "It was the Fan" defense. Watch the replay. The fan is clapping, and yes, likely said something not so kind. I don't care what the fan said, there was no reach over by the fan. Rypien was pissed off and took it out on who ever he could. Manny Malhotra used this defense for Rypien, saying "The fan got a little too involved. There is no place in the game for that." Indeed, Manny. Who wants the fans to behave like... fans. I hate to put it this way, but if you are blaming the fan, you're an idiot.
  • The "It was the Security" defense. Come on. So the Xcel Energy Center was supposed to anticipate this? After countless games throughout the NHL without an issue? Nah. Security was there in a heart beat. The cover was not pulled, because, again, they did not anticipate a player being a complete an total f'ing looney toon and going after a fan. This can't be pinned on the stadium, nor its personnel.

There is only one person, one factor, one anything to blame here. Rick Rypien. Completely unacceptable behavior from a player who had lost control of himself. Not that there is any evidence of this, but play this out in a chance encounter in the real world. A guy gets thrown out of a bar, and another guy heckles him on the way out. The guy being tossed attacks the heckler. What now? You going to tell him to leave the bar for three days?

Once again, there is a wide spectrum of opinions on this. The problem is, no one seems to be focused on the one thing that matters the most. He grabbed a fan. A FAN. This is so wrong on so many levels that a five to ten game suspension just does not match the crime.

So many people claiming "over reaction." Sometimes there needs to be over reaction. Sometimes there are cases where drastic action needs to be taken before something terrible happens. The head shot rules needed to be in place before Marc Savard and others had their careers put in jeopardy. This is a chance, not for over reaction, but for the NHL to make it clear that this is unacceptable before it turns into a Ron Artest moment.

That is the bottom line. We have all become so complacent with the NHL's actions we have forgotten what the right thing to do is. Hammer gets two games, as does Wisniewski. We forget that there is still a right and a wrong way to do things. We should not be trying to guess what convoluted suspension the NHL will hand out. If we, as the media, are to act in our full force to influence the league, we should be stating what the suspension should be. We should be pressuring the NHL to the right thing, not just as we expect them to do.

Do the right thing, NHL. Get this guy off the ice and make it clear to the players that physical interaction with the fans is not going to be tolerated in any way. Stop this before it turns into something much, much worse. Show your fans that they mean something more than a small suspension for a guy who's time with the team is likely done anyway.

Just do the right thing.

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Hey, can anyone who’s got a Wild ticket sitting around scan the part on the back that says what the liability waiving part says?

Hockey Blog Adventure: New Post: Trip Report - Prague Pictures! (I'm also on Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)

by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Oct 20, 2010 11:07 AM CDT reply actions  

Sure they can… but guess what? Courts have ruled that waiver to be invalid in more cases than not. I don’t want the guy to sue, but the waiver would not prevent it.

Editor:Hockey Wilderness Assistant Editor:SBN Minnesota Owner: Komissaari erämaa

Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.

by BReynolds on Oct 20, 2010 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't thnk that precludes actions of malicious intent

Just the typical, being hit by a puck, stick, etc.

Proprietor of Hockey Wilderness - We take Minnesota hockey WAY too seriously.

by nathaneide on Oct 20, 2010 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

I agree with both of you, but it would still be interesting to see exactly what it says.

Hockey Blog Adventure: New Post: Trip Report - Prague Pictures! (I'm also on Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)

by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Oct 20, 2010 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

Holy shit

You wrote it all out.

Proprietor of Hockey Wilderness - We take Minnesota hockey WAY too seriously.

by nathaneide on Oct 20, 2010 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

One of our readers asked for something I could provide. I do what I can. ;-)

Editor:Hockey Wilderness Assistant Editor:SBN Minnesota Owner: Komissaari erämaa

Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.

by BReynolds on Oct 20, 2010 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Thank you very much!

Also, what Nathan said. I figured you’d just take a picture or scan it or something.

Hockey Blog Adventure: New Post: Trip Report - Prague Pictures! (I'm also on Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)

by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Oct 20, 2010 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

My scanner sucks, and my camera takes GIANT pictures. Would never load properly.

And you are welcome.

Editor:Hockey Wilderness Assistant Editor:SBN Minnesota Owner: Komissaari erämaa

Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.

by BReynolds on Oct 20, 2010 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

The Holder of a ticket to the event at the Xcel Energy Center assume all risks and danger of personal injury and all other hazards in any way arising from the event, whether occurring prior to, during, or after the event in specifically (but not exclusively) the danger of being injured by hockey pucks and sticks, other spectators or players or by thrown objects.

I’m not a lawyer, but it looks like this is covered. Even if these things are really hard to enforce.

Hockey Blog Adventure: New Post: Trip Report - Prague Pictures! (I'm also on Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)

by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Oct 20, 2010 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree. They think of everything when they print these. I think the biggest thing with enforcing them has always been that the ticket holder never signed anything agreeing to these conditions, and thus there is no contract. It has been awhile since I heard of anyone suing over something that happened at a game, though.

Editor:Hockey Wilderness Assistant Editor:SBN Minnesota Owner: Komissaari erämaa

Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.

by BReynolds on Oct 20, 2010 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Came from Pension Plan Puppets to rec your comment.

Also, the Canucks suck :P

BS

by MapleLeafMole on Oct 20, 2010 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

HA! Thanks.

Editor:Hockey Wilderness Assistant Editor:SBN Minnesota Owner: Komissaari erämaa

Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.

by BReynolds on Oct 20, 2010 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, it's not ''from my mom's basement'', but it's pretty much the same thing!

So I get to keep my imaginary dog! (see today’s walk if you wanna know why I’m saying this).

I personally believe 5-10 will be what’s given, even though maybe it should be more, but really, regardless of the suspension’s length, it’ll be much longer before Ryp gets back into NHL action.

JS, Champion of the first ever Hockey Wilderness Playoff Bracket Challenge! WHOOOOOOOO!

Not the loser of the first official Hockey Wilderness Fantasy Hockey League

Owner of the Bertrand Acadians of the Hockey Wilderness Fantasy Hockey League

twitter: BubbleWild48

by JSLandry on Oct 20, 2010 11:09 AM CDT reply actions  

Yeah, it is definitely all on Rypien.

SportsCenter just had a guy on that was saying it was partly the X’s fault for not having glass up there. That guy kept saying “Ripken” as well, so you know…grain of salt.

by fischean on Oct 20, 2010 11:23 AM CDT reply actions  

Yeah that Cal Ripken's a dangerous mofo..:P

It is very stupid to think the structure of the arena had anything to do with the incident.

JS, Champion of the first ever Hockey Wilderness Playoff Bracket Challenge! WHOOOOOOOO!

Not the loser of the first official Hockey Wilderness Fantasy Hockey League

Owner of the Bertrand Acadians of the Hockey Wilderness Fantasy Hockey League

twitter: BubbleWild48

by JSLandry on Oct 20, 2010 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

Especially we've been able to get through ten years without any incidents like this.

Which would then lead one to believe it’s indeed-gasp!-Rypien’s fault.

by fischean on Oct 20, 2010 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

GASP! I think you're on to something! ;-)

It’s not like we have video evidence of Rypien jumping on that fan like an untamed animal (notice I didn’t use wild animal, wouldn’t want to associate him with the Wild) on his prey… oh wait.

JS, Champion of the first ever Hockey Wilderness Playoff Bracket Challenge! WHOOOOOOOO!

Not the loser of the first official Hockey Wilderness Fantasy Hockey League

Owner of the Bertrand Acadians of the Hockey Wilderness Fantasy Hockey League

twitter: BubbleWild48

by JSLandry on Oct 20, 2010 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

Saw this coming

RT @real_espnlebrun: League will shortly announce they’ve suspended indefinitely Rypien pending a hearing

Proprietor of Hockey Wilderness - We take Minnesota hockey WAY too seriously.

by nathaneide on Oct 20, 2010 11:44 AM CDT reply actions  

If this is true, it’s probably hinged to a behavioral counseling stipulation.

Shove it in your addendum.
'Nucks Misconduct chief slab of man meat.

by kesrows on Oct 20, 2010 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

makes sense...

Is it true that Rypien had ‘’mental problems’’ a few years back? It’s something I heard…

JS, Champion of the first ever Hockey Wilderness Playoff Bracket Challenge! WHOOOOOOOO!

Not the loser of the first official Hockey Wilderness Fantasy Hockey League

Owner of the Bertrand Acadians of the Hockey Wilderness Fantasy Hockey League

twitter: BubbleWild48

by JSLandry on Oct 20, 2010 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah. I noted in comments somewhere. He was out with an injury, but when okayed for return, stayed away due to “personal issues”. Nobody ever found out what that was about. Anything more is just speculation.

Shove it in your addendum.
'Nucks Misconduct chief slab of man meat.

by kesrows on Oct 20, 2010 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

I see. Thanks for clearing that up!

JS, Champion of the first ever Hockey Wilderness Playoff Bracket Challenge! WHOOOOOOOO!

Not the loser of the first official Hockey Wilderness Fantasy Hockey League

Owner of the Bertrand Acadians of the Hockey Wilderness Fantasy Hockey League

twitter: BubbleWild48

by JSLandry on Oct 20, 2010 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

Rypien was willing to risk losing a career he has spent years chasing and the millions of dollars that would come with it, all because his team was getting crushed in the whopping sixth game of the season and he was being yelled at by a fan. Yeah, he probably has self control and anger issues.

by HobbesD on Oct 20, 2010 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

It may or may not. The indefinite suspension is due to the fact that the league has not made a decision, and the Canucks play tonight. So, until the hearing can be held, he is suspended “indefinitely.” They do this regularly. The in person hearing is a right under the CBA when the suspension is more than five games.

Editor:Hockey Wilderness Assistant Editor:SBN Minnesota Owner: Komissaari erämaa

Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.

by BReynolds on Oct 20, 2010 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, they can't just make this a snap call because the Nucks play tonight, this needs serious thought behind it.

JS, Champion of the first ever Hockey Wilderness Playoff Bracket Challenge! WHOOOOOOOO!

Not the loser of the first official Hockey Wilderness Fantasy Hockey League

Owner of the Bertrand Acadians of the Hockey Wilderness Fantasy Hockey League

twitter: BubbleWild48

by JSLandry on Oct 20, 2010 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

Good write up, BR. Think overall it’s fair and concise. Cheers.

Shove it in your addendum.
'Nucks Misconduct chief slab of man meat.

by kesrows on Oct 20, 2010 11:48 AM CDT reply actions  

Thanks. It is appreciated.

Editor:Hockey Wilderness Assistant Editor:SBN Minnesota Owner: Komissaari erämaa

Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.

by BReynolds on Oct 20, 2010 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nathan made it to Puck Daddy's blog

No love for you BR… Although I dig the info.

Nothing better than World Series baseball in the snow!

by DarylV on Oct 20, 2010 1:07 PM CDT reply actions  

Ah, Wysh loves us. It’s just a debate between a group of very snarky people. ;-)

Editor:Hockey Wilderness Assistant Editor:SBN Minnesota Owner: Komissaari erämaa

Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.

by BReynolds on Oct 20, 2010 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

Snarky? No way...

funny the word was derived from -to snort. maybe the Nucks are all hopped up on some Canadian snuff? “You know that stuff is like moonshine!?!” Big Daddy=puck daddy…

likely not.

Nothing better than World Series baseball in the snow!

by DarylV on Oct 20, 2010 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

...

The NHL rules bother me. As serious as this is, a player should never push a fan and it deserves a suspension, but you get suspended for this but not head hits?

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by bestbostonsports on Oct 20, 2010 1:09 PM CDT reply actions  

I like the argument from some people saying (in internet speak) “…OMG the cover should’ve been up, there should be permanent glass there to prevent this OMG…”

1. They play other levels of hockey in this arena. The “visitor’s” bench has been and will be used as the UMD players’ bench. Or UND. Or St. Cloud State. Or any of the other WCHA teams that may play here for the Final Five. Or any of the high school teams that get to play in the Xcel Center. Or anyone else that I’m forgetting.

Maybe their fans get seats right next to that bench, in hopes of getting a celebratory high-five from their favorite team as they leave the ice?

Oh, right. The argument is that we should put some glass up, remove the fan interaction because one guy is a d-bag and loses his cool.

2. It turns out that there are other, classier players that play in the NHL that fans may wish to interact with. If those seats are up for grabs, can I get them for the December 26th game when the Red Wings are in town, in hopes of shaking Modano’s hand?

3. Rypien reached over to grab the fan. That probably means the fan said something to spark him off. I’m pretty sure fans have been saying dirty things to opposing teams/candidates/etc since the invention of dirt. Rypien crossed a line that pro players should not cross. They are paid to hold themselves above displays like this, paid to shrug off stupid comments by stupid people, and just keep on walking down that tunnel. If the NHL cares at all about their image and wants to be respected (same goes for the Canucks), they’ll punish him fairly. What that is, I don’t know.

4. I don’t know why I started numbering things off. It’s too late to stop now.

5. Actually, I guess I’m done.

by dlfedie on Oct 20, 2010 1:15 PM CDT reply actions   2 recs

Nicely played Dustin

Seriously. Thanks.

Proprietor of Hockey Wilderness - We take Minnesota hockey WAY too seriously.

by nathaneide on Oct 20, 2010 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

From the previous thread

Somebody posted that the brother of the fan called into KFAN this morning and all he said was “Way To Be Professional”. Maybe Rypien didn’t want him getting the wrong idea.

by Chris Winner on Oct 20, 2010 1:41 PM CDT reply actions  

as i’ve said a few times now, i’m guessing the league gives him 10 games, but the Canucks add on some more discipline of their own.

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by missy on Oct 20, 2010 2:11 PM CDT reply actions  

That's exactly what I've been saying as well.

JS, Champion of the first ever Hockey Wilderness Playoff Bracket Challenge! WHOOOOOOOO!

Not the loser of the first official Hockey Wilderness Fantasy Hockey League

Owner of the Bertrand Acadians of the Hockey Wilderness Fantasy Hockey League

twitter: BubbleWild48

by JSLandry on Oct 20, 2010 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's my assumption

Proprietor of Hockey Wilderness - We take Minnesota hockey WAY too seriously.

by nathaneide on Oct 20, 2010 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think that as well. Nice write up, BR.

by Call of the Wild on Oct 20, 2010 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree

When I wrote up the blurb (mostly to get the poll of Wings fans on where they stand), I did say “accosted” instead of “assaulted”, but the legal definition of what Rypien did was Assault.

I don’t want there to be a misunderstanding about what I was talking about at WiiM, but I voted for a 21+ game suspension on all three sites. I think 10 would be the absolute minimum and I would like to see him gone for more for exactly the reasons you laid out. You cannot EVER cross that line.

by J.J. from Kansas on Oct 20, 2010 2:32 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

I originally lumped your post in with the defending posts… but it was a snap judgment based on the title. After reading it, I saw your point. Good post, by the way.

Editor:Hockey Wilderness Assistant Editor:SBN Minnesota Owner: Komissaari erämaa

Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.

by BReynolds on Oct 20, 2010 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Couldn't agree more

Thanks for sharing. Please, post your link so everyone here can see it!

Proprietor of Hockey Wilderness - We take Minnesota hockey WAY too seriously.

by nathaneide on Oct 20, 2010 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

It’s on the walk. But here it is:

http://www.wingingitinmotown.com/2010/10/20/1763130/canucks-rick-rypien-accosts-fan

Editor:Hockey Wilderness Assistant Editor:SBN Minnesota Owner: Komissaari erämaa

Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.

by BReynolds on Oct 20, 2010 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

It’s definitely interesting to see the different breakouts of the voting. I’m sure there are plenty like me who voted in all three spots, so I don’t know what the overlap is, but it plays out just like I’d have expected it to. The voters here overwhelmingly trended towards the longest while the ones at Nucks Misconduct generally call for lighter punishment. At WiiM, there’s a divide between the lighter side and the very heavy side.

by J.J. from Kansas on Oct 20, 2010 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

When I voted here, I voted for the same thing without hesitation. I agree with you JJ that the minimum should be 10. As a professional athlete you can’t cross that line AT ALL. You get paid millions of dollars to play kids games like baseball, hockey, etc. The people that don’t have the privilege to do that for a living look up to a number of athletes and view them as role models.

When an athlete goes after a fan like this, appropriate action is a must from the league so it can maintain its image amongst the public, especially a league that recently went through a lockout and is trying its best to resurrect itself to gain back fans that fell off the wagon from the lockout. I honestly don’t know how someone could defend an action such as this one.

by Call of the Wild on Oct 20, 2010 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

How I see it here in Vancouver.

 I am a Canucks Fan & a resident of British Coloumbia Canada &what I saw last night was brutal! why did the Minnesota fan get kicked out??? He did nothing wrong, & his buddy beside him got the boot also.
 The big question here is why is there no plexi glass running up the side of the stands at the entrance to the visiting dressing room? This should be addressed & fixed.

 As for Rypien… I think 20 games is the proper number. He lost his cool in a game that was over. Not smart at all Rick.

by # 1 Canucks Fan on Oct 20, 2010 4:53 PM CDT reply actions  

They didn't get kicked out, they got new seats

JS, Champion of the first ever Hockey Wilderness Playoff Bracket Challenge! WHOOOOOOOO!

Not the loser of the first official Hockey Wilderness Fantasy Hockey League

Owner of the Bertrand Acadians of the Hockey Wilderness Fantasy Hockey League

twitter: BubbleWild48

by JSLandry on Oct 20, 2010 5:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

There’s actually a tunnel that’s pushed out when NHL players walk through to get to the benches. They pull those back between periods; hence, it was not there to keep the players and fans separated. They don’t normally keep it out because it interferes with the sight lines of fans who sit next to it. I guess NHL officials and Xcel officials assume that players won’t assault fans like Rypien did. In fact, it’s becoming more and more rare to see anything like this.
I honestly think that the Vancouver personnel did a pretty good job of ushering Rypien back down the tunnel before anything escalated. This is just one of those unfortunate focusing events that hopefully we as all hockey fans never have to see again.

by JDesthubert on Oct 20, 2010 6:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

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