Objectivity: You're Doing it Wrong
Right off the top, let's be clear. Hockey Wilderness is not an objective source of Wild news and commentary. Read any blog on the SBNation network, and you'll know very quickly. This is a place for fans, by fans. We're Wild fans here at Hockey Wilderness. Plain and simple.
At the same time, we do strive to behave in a professional manner. We don't criticize where it is not due, we don't overly hype the positives, and we use a certain level of objective thought when analyzing what is happening with the team. To show that, we have never had a single post about how cute Mikko is, or a post about this being the worst team in the league with absolutely no chance to win a game all season.
They aren't the Red Wings, and they aren't the Islanders. Right?
However, the world needs sources of objective news, and the world needs sources of non-objective news. We all know everyone in the United States and Canada is entitled to their opinion, and we welcome that opinion to the conversation. Even the most objective person in the world is going to criticize and praise every so often.
It is when the people being paid to be objective can no longer handle that role that we begin to question the validity of their reporting.
Make the jump for a look at a rather interesting post from our good friend Mr. Dater.
I really am not even sure how Mr. Dater continues to carry the label of beat writer. The beat writers I have read from around the league are generally an objective group, reporting the facts, and throwing it a tidbit of opinion every so often. Russo's criticism of David Koci lasted about five sentences. I have never seen a beat writer use a blog or newspaper article to attack one specific player for 16 paragraphs.
The newspaper world generally calls people who do that "columnists" and they get paid for their opinions, right Tom? The validity of their opinion is debatable, and when it comes to hockey, generally based on a small sample size. Their opinion is presented as fact, and many people buy into it because of the bull horn the newspaper lends them.
The opinion guys sell papers. So do the beat writers. What happens when the beat writer can no longer be objective? Let's find out.
On his blog, which is an official blog on the Denver Post's website, our friend Mr. Dater chose not to write about the 3-1 loss, or how the Avs played. Well, to be fair, he did give the Avs two paragraphs at the bottom. No, instead this source for objective, fact based reports on the game used his space to attack a player from the opposing team.
Four days ago, we wrote about Adrian Dater's inability to quote sources and start rumors surrounding opposing teams which he does not report on. We gave the credit that at least he wasn't writing in his official role as a beat writer. This time, he gets no such pass.
This time, Mr. Dater goes off on Cal Clutterbuck in an official manner, something I have never seen a beat wrtier do in my life. Sixteen paragraphs of criticism based on the small sample size of games Mr. Dater sees Clutterbuck play. I cannot imagine, for a second, reading a Russo's Rants with nothing but attacks on an opposing player. I know Russo has opinions, and we have shared some of them. He would never put them out in his role as the Wild beat writer for the Strib.
Turns out, Russo values his job. Fancy that.
What did Mr. Dater have to say last night? Let's take a look.
Look, I’m going to keep this "professional." Fact is, I don’t care whether the Avalanche wins or loses. Just past that stage in life, folks, where I’m going to care at all about a bunch of guys being paid big money to play a game of "mercenary vs. mercenary." I know a lot of you think I’m either a huge Avalanche homer, or that I’m relentlessly negative about them and hate them somehow. They say you’re doing your job in this business if people on both sides think that.
The use of the dick fingers in the first sentence is nice. Like he is telling us to throw out the idea that he has any professionalism left. He doesn't care if the Avs win or lose. Yeah, right. Go back and read his blog. The nights they win, they are heroes. The nights they lose, they are goats not worthy of oxygen.
For the record, I don't think you are a homer, sir. A homer would admit their bias. You live and die with the successes and failures of the team you cover. That is not being a homer, it is being raging fan. Something the beat writer is not supposed to be. Homers are apologists for their team. You do no such thing. You do however, lack a sense of objectivity about the Avalanche, and that sir, makes you a fan.
Colorado doesn't allow fans in the press box. Interesting they keep the blinders on for you and the only newspaper left in town, yet ban the guys at Mile High Hockey because they are not serious journalists.
Sixteen paragraphs attacking one player, people. That's not objective, it's being ticked off because that player rattled your favorite team. In too many of those paragraphs, Mr. Dater implicitly compares Clutterbuck to players like Matt Cooke and Jarkko Ruutu. Such as this wonderful 'graph:
The bottom bottom line is: Cal Clutterbuck is the type of player who will hit you when you’re not looking. Then, when you want to do something about that, he’s going to duck his head down at the angry paws coming at him, until he can get himself into some kind of rope-a-dope situation, or better yet, the referee comes over and breaks it up.
Clutterbuck hits people when they're not looking? Maybe those players need to wake up and pay attention to the entire sheet of ice. Ever heard the phrase "keep your head up?" It applies here. Would you like hockey players to send written invitations? "I humbly request the honor of your presence deep in the corner so I may separate you from your skates?"
Not going to happen.
Not to support the NHL's system of discipline, but Clutterbuck has never suspended, and has never even been the subject of a hearing. Big hits are clean and allowed in the NHL. Don't like it? Watch tennis. Until Clutterbuck does something dirty, save it. You don't want to get hit, pay attention.
Mr. Dater then accuses Clutterbuck of trying to hurt someone with his knee, and then says that Clutterbuck wouldn't drop the gloves with Adam Foote. Clutterbuck drew a penalty, which was his job, right? Right. The Wild get a power play, and Clutterbuck is further into the Avs collective head.
That isn't good enough for Mr. Dater. No, he offers us this:
Of course, the linesmen stepped in and broke things up. Anyone want to lay odds against Clutterbuck’s inner mind going anything other than "Phhheeeewwwww" at that moment?
I would give to 5000-to-1, sir, that Clutterbuck was thinking "Yeah, take a swing, Footer. Take the roughing call... come on man, take a swing." From what I know about Clutterbuck, he is more than willing to take a punch, but he would prefer to keep his gloves on and put his team on the power play than go sit for five minutes.
Of course, that would be information you gain from watching a player, and a team, more than six times a year. Add a pinch, just a pinch, of objectivity, and you would understand that.
And a lot of his defenders point out that he leads the league in hits every year, but also has low penalty minutes – which kind of makes my point. He’s trying to artificially jack up his hit total, but doesn’t want to back anything up with a fight or two.
Tough talk from a guy who covers David Koci and covered Darcy Tucker for years. How is Clutterbuck artificially inflating anything? He can't make the official scorer record a hit. He is playing hockey, let the stats guys do what they may.
As for backing it up with a fight or two... he has done so. Not this year, but he will when the time is right. Would I like to see Calutterbuck drop a few more times? Absolutely, but I enjoy a good fight. Clutterbuck's job is not to take the five minute major, but to draw the penalty. Every team has that guy.
Another wonderful tidbit from Mr. Dater:
But, come on, did the Wild forward really talk a lot of smack about the Avalanche tonight, after a December 3-1 victory?
In fact, he did.
Cal Clutterbuck talked smack? WHAT?!?! Next you'll try to tell me Jacques Lemaire is coaching again,or Marian Gaborik has a groin injury. Does Willie Nelson still smoke pot? You're really going to write about Clutterbuck talking smack? That's just plain lazy.
Anything else, Mr. Dater?
Like I said, he’s good at it. But it still doesn’t change that ultimate truth about Cal Clutterbuck: that he doesn’t stand up for himself, that he wants to hit and run and cower. Teammates hate those kinds of guys, because it means their guys are going to be targeted right back since he won’t fight his own battles. These teams will meet again soon, and we’ll see if Cal is clucking as loudly that night.
Yeah, Clutteruck is the most unpopular guy on the team, right? Mr. Dater knows this because of his intense and long lasting relationship with so many players in the Wild locker room. I mean, if Mr. Dater knows that the Wild "would love to be rid of Martin Havlat," he must know if Clutterbuck's teammates like him or not.
My Take
Mr. Dater likes to bill himself as someone who doesn't care if the Avs win or lose. He complains mercilessly on Twitter about the life of a hockey writer and how horrible it is to get paid to write about hockey. He has taken on the role of a blogger, both for the newspaper and for Versus. Yet, he continues to fool himself into thinking that he is just an objective beat writer for the Post.
Do I think Mr. Dater has no right to express his opinion? Absolutely not. I would fight with anyone who says he has no right to do so. I defend anyone's right to express any opinion they want. However, we also need people with an unbiased (or at least mostly unbiased) account of the happenings to give us a basis for the discussion. That is Mr. Dater's job.
His job is not to call out Cal Clutterbuck in print, to call him names, and write about how much his teammates hate him. Unless you (gasp) have sources on the Wild roster that say they hate Clutterbuck, how about you stop with the innuendo and rumors about this team?
The danger of people like Adrian Dater becomes apparent when you try to sort out what happened and what didn't in any given game. It's like watching MSNBC or FOX News and trying to get the truth. Mr. Dater shows no interest in his duties as the Avalanche beat writer. His blog for the Post and for Versus read like someone trying to show just how nonobjective he can be, and trying to secure a job as a columnist.
I look forward to the day the Post actually reports on what happened in the game rather than giving me 16 paragraphs about how much their beat writer dislikes Cal Clutterbuck. I also look forward the Avalanche granting credentials to the folks at Mile High Hockey, since their policy seems to be as biased as Mr. Dater himself.
The bottom line is this: Mr. Dater is an Avalanche fan. So are the people at MHH. I see absolutely no difference between the two any longer. Except that MHH doesn't pretend to be something it isn't.
34 comments
|
5 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Well done.
Beat writers don’t offer their opinions and if the Post is happy with Dater doing this, they should change his title.
I wonder what the Avalanche’s reasoning for not accrediting bloggers is? Is this a team rule or is it just MHH that they refuse to accredit? I was under the impression that only two teams – the Rangers and the Leafs – actually had a no-bloggers policy, and in both cases it’s related to the volume of bloggers covering the team. I don’t see the Avalanche having the same conundrum.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
Frivolous Ornamentation
by Karina on Dec 24, 2010 12:36 PM CST reply actions
Funny he calls C-buck a dirty player without any examples except that ’’knee’’ thing that no one else saw. He’s never laid a hit that got him a call from Mr. Campbell, just because he hits a lot and doesn’t get many penalties doesn’t mean he’s a coward, that’s just smart hockey. Also, he’s had 7 fighting majors in his 3 year career so far, so it’s not like he doesn’t fight, he just doesn’t fight when he doesn’t need to. Foote has 30 FMs total in his 20 years in the league (including preseason and postseason), so less fights per year than C-Buck. I guess that means Foote is a spineless pussy too right Mr.Dater?
Koci’s the real coward, trying to fight Spurgeon, who’s nearly a full foot smaller.
Dater needs to find another job if he’s not happy with that one. Perhaps he should take Simon Cowell’s place on American Idol or something and leave the writing to people who actually have class and talent.
JS, Champion of the first ever Hockey Wilderness Playoff Bracket Challenge! WHOOOOOOOO!
Not the loser of the first official Hockey Wilderness Fantasy Hockey League
Owner of the Bertrand Acadians of the Hockey Wilderness Fantasy Hockey League
Author, watchdog, enforcer and french-canadian connection for Hockey Wilderness.
twitter: BubbleWild48
I don’t understand why players need to fight after a big hit. That’s not really the point, is it? You’re supposed to fight after a DIRTY hit, right?
So let’s see some game tape and find out where all the dirty hits from Clutterbuck were. How about you provide some evidence for your bullshit argument, Dater?
I wish I got paid to spit venom and lies at millions of readers.
Owner of The Haves & Havlats in the Hockey Wilderness League
The only time I feel it is appropriate to fight after a clean hit is if you are using it to change the momentum. It should not be retaliatory thing, no.
Editor:Hockey Wilderness Assistant Editor:SBN Minnesota Owner: Komissaari erämaa
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
So what are your thoughts about Freddy Meyer’s hit on Lucic last night and the ensuing Pier-Sixer from last night?
It was worth posting my drivel to get that link… That was the Shizzle my HansunFrizzle! - JPinVA
After being fired as head coach, now a "Special Adviser" to Lighthouse Hockey
by David Hanssen on Dec 24, 2010 1:48 PM CST up reply actions
I haven’t seen it. Do you have video somewhere?
Editor:Hockey Wilderness Assistant Editor:SBN Minnesota Owner: Komissaari erämaa
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
Here’s the youtube of it. I apologize in advance for Jack Edwards on play-by-play.
It was worth posting my drivel to get that link… That was the Shizzle my HansunFrizzle! - JPinVA
After being fired as head coach, now a "Special Adviser" to Lighthouse Hockey
by David Hanssen on Dec 24, 2010 3:17 PM CST up reply actions
OK, I watched until they said “That’s a suspendable hit.” No it’s not. Lucic needs to know that hit is coming. You can’t look at the puck in the NHL. Sorry, pal. Take your lick and learn from it.
Next… WTF is Savard thinking? “Hey guys, I missed an entire season with a head injury, want to throw some fists at me?” Moron.
As for the fight… if Boston was trying to change the tide, they were about 20 minutes too late. Down 4-1 with four minutes, you aren’t coming back, you’re just being petty. This fight didn’t need to happen. Weak sauce by Boston.
Editor:Hockey Wilderness Assistant Editor:SBN Minnesota Owner: Komissaari erämaa
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
Weren't they up 4-1?
JS, Champion of the first ever Hockey Wilderness Playoff Bracket Challenge! WHOOOOOOOO!
Not the loser of the first official Hockey Wilderness Fantasy Hockey League
Owner of the Bertrand Acadians of the Hockey Wilderness Fantasy Hockey League
Author, watchdog, enforcer and french-canadian connection for Hockey Wilderness.
twitter: BubbleWild48
Indeed. That makes it even worse.
Editor:Hockey Wilderness Assistant Editor:SBN Minnesota Owner: Komissaari erämaa
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
What I thought was most heinous was the fact that Lucic downed Meyer with a punch WHILE the refs were holding them both back. Are you kidding me? I think he was just embarrassed that he got completely trucked and needed to assert his manhood.
I literally laughed out loud when I saw Savard fighting. That was so absurd. I especially enjoyed the commentators remarks “If Little hurts Savard the WHOLE TEAM is coming after him.” Pretty sure Savard got himself into that mess. Generally if your a player like Savard you don’t fight unless you want to.
Owner of The Haves & Havlats in the Hockey Wilderness League
I thought it was completely clean. Lucic got leveled and there wasn’t a damn thing wrong with it. But not only do you have to fight after dirty hits now, clean hits are also fair game. Who knew?!
Owner of The Haves & Havlats in the Hockey Wilderness League
FMIV is a lot of things
Rick DiPietro’s best friend, a New England blue blood (hence Frederick Meyer the Fourth), who the Isles got for Alexei Zhitnik (Who was then turned by the Flyers into Braden Coburn… Yeah, the Isles didn’t exactly maximize the return on their investment there) and the proud owner of a Calder Cup championship ring, but a dirty player he is not. Having had the “pleasure” to watch FMIV over the past couple of seasons with the Isles, he’s not a dirty guy.
The thing that got to me about the whole thing, aside from Savard’s inability to Ned Braden out of a fight and Jack Edwards’ insane homerific commentary, was that all the Bruins immediately went after Meyer for simply standing up their guy at the blueline. If Chara or Lucic had done that, they would be heroes in The Hub.
It was worth posting my drivel to get that link… That was the Shizzle my HansunFrizzle! - JPinVA
After being fired as head coach, now a "Special Adviser" to Lighthouse Hockey
by David Hanssen on Dec 25, 2010 1:09 AM CST up reply actions
It has already been tagged with his Twitter account. Feel free to send it to him if you feel the desire. He knows where to find us.
Editor:Hockey Wilderness Assistant Editor:SBN Minnesota Owner: Komissaari erämaa
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
Two separate issues here
The first issue of Mr Dater’s information – I agree 100%. He wouldn’t reveal his sources to the Wild rumors, or at least point us in the general direction (someone in management would be sufficient if he was trying to protect his sources). He didn’t do that. And again here, trying to say that Clutterbuck is dirty doesn’t carry alot of weight since as you point out Clutterbuck hasn’t been fined or penalized for his hits – and most of us can agree he hits clean (although occasionally unnecessarily).
The other issue is the “beat writer” role. I really do think there is a difference between an article that will be published as an informational piece (such as in the printed paper or on the main website for the paper). However, this is on the Post’s blog page. It is a blog. Since the site is currently down, I can’t see what the Post’s policy is on blogs. However, I imagine it does allow for more freedom for writers. That is the way things are moving. In fact, having some teams allow bloggers in as official press is a pretty strong sign of that change happening. I think you can disagree with what he wrote, but I think the forum in the form of a blog is an appropriate place. It probably is also what the Post wants and perhaps even the readers of the Post want.
Simply put, I don’t think this issue of objectivity is as cut and dry as you make it. Journalism in general has changed (Fox News, MSNBC, etc). Most news organizations carry some slant to them, it is apparently what consumers want (hence the marketplace fills that desire). It may not “feel” right, but it is reality.
It is a blog, yes, but it is an official, Post sponsored and hosted blog. It is written by a beat writer who has to maintain his objectivity in all arenas, or he is no longer a beat writer. I gave a him a pass, if only a half hearted one, when writing for Versus. When writing for the Post, he has to be professional, and his job is as the beat writer, not as a opinion writer.
While I agree 100% that journalism has changed, there are still times when objectivity is needed. If Mr. Dater wants to write opinion, he is more than welcome to do so, but if he wants to attack other teams, their players, and live and die with the team he covers, he cannot be the beat writer.
If he wants to write like a fan, he can petition SBNation for a new blog, and he can do so. If he wants to no longer be the objective reporter, he doesn’t have to be, but you cannot be both. The newspaper needs to be a source for news, and that is his job, to provide the news.
I cannot disagree more that just because he wrote it on a blog makes him any less objective. He attacked a specific player, with unfounded, sourceless information. He has behaved in a manner that the Avalanche use as justification for not issuing credentials, and yet there is no backlash from them either.
Some teams allowing bloggers has nothing to do with this. The bloggers that have earned the right to be in the press box have done so by behaving as professionals, and not pretending to be something we are not. Nathan and I are not allowed to cheer in the press box, and thus we do not.
Our job here is to provide the fans angle on things. Mr. Dater’s job is to provide the unbiased, objective report about what happened. On his blog, in his role with Versus, it doesn’t matter. He gets paid and makes a living doing a job that demands he be objective. If he cannot do so, he needs to step aside and let someone who can do the job.
Editor:Hockey Wilderness Assistant Editor:SBN Minnesota Owner: Komissaari erämaa
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
I'm just saying
Maybe it is what the Post wants. Just like Fox wants O’Reilly screaming at all liberals, maybe the post wants him to be a homer on his blog. It might seem wrong, but newspapers need the clicks/advertising revenue like any other media. If his opinionated pieces bring readers, then isn’t he doing his job?
I have strong doubts that the Post wants their beat writer being non-objective. I have no case to prove it, but they have columnists, they need a beat writer. He is not doing his job just by bringing in readers, no. If the Post wants him to be a homer, then the Avs need to step in and end it. They claim to be against non-objective reporting, and then they let him in. BS,
Editor:Hockey Wilderness Assistant Editor:SBN Minnesota Owner: Komissaari erämaa
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
Ok, Ok
Now that I see his tweets trying to defend himself as objective, he is making himself look bad and obviously his mission is to be objective. He needs to decide his aim and stick with it. He can be objective or non-objective, but he just needs to be up front about which he is. He can’t have it both ways.
To be honest with you, I think that the Post beat writers are all like him, Mike Chambers that writes for the Post covering DU Hockey is just as bad he does some of the same crap… Mark Kiszla during the Wild and Av’s series was just as bad… Maybe their editor wants them to write like partisan hacks… Now this buffoon…
Dater should put on some skates and face the music if he wants to chirp a guy like that.
Support Your Local Coyotes Blog - Five For Howling
JaredFromLondon: ...Odin, he's cool.
Or at least...
…show his face in the Wild dressing room the next time he’s either in town in St. Paul or the Wild are in town in Denver.
I’m guessing he probably doesn’t have the guts to do either.
And for Dater’s information, I specifically remember a game against Dallas last season where he hit Brad Richards, Steve Ott came over and invited him to dance, and Clutterbuck accepted.
Probably didn’t have to since the hit was clean. But fighting after clean hits has been all the rage in the NHL for a few seasons now.
Writer for Defending Big D
by Brandon Bibb on Dec 24, 2010 11:27 PM CST up reply actions
That hit was insane! Richards could've been seriously hurt banging his head against the ice so hard.
JS, Champion of the first ever Hockey Wilderness Playoff Bracket Challenge! WHOOOOOOOO!
Not the loser of the first official Hockey Wilderness Fantasy Hockey League
Owner of the Bertrand Acadians of the Hockey Wilderness Fantasy Hockey League
Author, watchdog, enforcer and french-canadian connection for Hockey Wilderness.
twitter: BubbleWild48
and they aren’t the Islanders. Right?
Hey! We beat the Devils last night! We’re no longer the worst team in the league! Only second worst!
But on to the matter at hand, the Clutterbuck to Ruutu/Cooke analogy doesn’t really hold that much water just when you look at the hard stats. Clutterbuck for his three season career has a total of 150 PIMs, or about what Cooke and Ruutu average on a season. If he were as implicitly a dirty player as Dater is making him out to be, Refs would be penalizing him a whole lot more than they are. Fact is, like Russo said, you can count on one hand the amount of times Clutterbuck has hit someone in a questionable manner, whether Dater likes it or not.
Dater also needs to look at the team he’s covering. This is a team that glorifies what Claude Lemieux did in their sweater and celebrates his “special” brand of hockey that included rearranging Kris Draper’s face as long as they win the Cup. On the current team, the only reason Foote is still around is because he’s beyond a dirty player. When at his best, he was a questionably ethical player but since he’s lost a step or five since he’s gotten older, all he does now is grab, slew foot and cheap shot. Koci is just a dime a dozen enforcer, easily replaceable by a Joel Rechlicz, Mitch Fritz, or five dozen guys in the AHL right now.
It was worth posting my drivel to get that link… That was the Shizzle my HansunFrizzle! - JPinVA
After being fired as head coach, now a "Special Adviser" to Lighthouse Hockey
by David Hanssen on Dec 24, 2010 1:46 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Well done.
Great comment, absolutely wonderful.
Editor:Hockey Wilderness Assistant Editor:SBN Minnesota Owner: Komissaari erämaa
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
Mikko is cute though. I mean. He is. That's more factual than Dater.
by ms.conduct on Dec 24, 2010 3:36 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Swoon.
Editor:Hockey Wilderness Assistant Editor:SBN Minnesota Owner: Komissaari erämaa
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
No debating the fact...
…that Mikko is cute and I have to admit that I lose all attempts at objectivity when Theodore does his post game interview without a shirt.
"Pain heals. Chicks dig scars. Glory lasts forever." Shane Falco
by minnesotagirl71 on Dec 27, 2010 3:54 PM CST up reply actions
Good point
Great points about Dater. This may be off subject but I have to call you out on it. Implying that FOX News and MSNBC don’t give the truth is incorrect. I am an independent so I have no bias but I did a study of the two as part of my thesis in college. While much of the commentary is opinion, MSNBC had verifiable facts 87% of the time vs. 23% for FOX News. In fact, FOX was actually found to either fabricate or mislead in nearly 78% of the stories I audited. Like I said, I know it’s off subject but as a writer myself, I know the importance of verifying facts, which is kind of what this is about. I know it’s easier to to try and lump the two together because it gives the appearance of objectivity. Unfortunately, it’s untrue in this case. Anyway, just wanted to point it out since I had done research on the subject and ssaw it come up in this column. Go Wild…
Thanks for the stats, but if the research was yours, I’m not sure where I would have found those facts.
Also, that was more of a joke, comparing the left leaning of MSNBC and the right leaning of FOX. It really had nothing to do with the actual veracity of what they say, but the fact that their partisan blinders skew their stories. While 87% of MSNBC might be factually corrct, I guarantee they are not giving you the full story.
Editor:Hockey Wilderness Assistant Editor:SBN Minnesota Owner: Komissaari erämaa
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.

by 






















