Koivu Contract Continues to Confuse
Sigh. Here we are, a few days removed from the contract extension of Mikko Koivu, and it seems that people still don't understand it. Which is fine, as I said in the previous defense of the deal. People who don't get it aren't going to get it, case closed. I'll let them live out their days in relative ignorance. Like the deal, hate it, it's your deal, not mine.
However, when someone from ESPN, the Worldwide Leader in Knowing Nothing About Hockey, chimes in, it makes me take notice, and makes me want to read what type of beautiful ignorance they can come up with. Was it analysis from Barry Melrose, John Buccigross, or Pierre LeBrun? No. Why would we want to include the handful of guys at ESPN that have actually watched more than the Stanley Cup Finals?
No, it's stats and analysis man Peter Keating, who also writes their "Ultimate Standings" articles, which Hockey Wilderness has contributed to in the past . To make matters worse? They bury the article behind their "Insider" area to make those who wish to read it pay for a service they'll never use again.
I gained access. Join me, won't you?
First off, let me give you ESPN's bio on Keating:
Keating's blog covers the world of statistics and analytics. He will examine concepts for evaluating athletes and teams across all sports, not just those commonly associated with sabermetrics. He'll introduce researchers who are developing sports analytical tools. And he will present and examine "Next Level" findings from ESPN -- data analysis that goes beyond official statistics to explain strategies and performance.
Got it. Stats guy. Check. Let's look at his hypothesis:
"To define Mikko by his statistics is to miss the point of what he's all about," Minnesota Wild GM Chuck Fletcher said last Thursday night after inking center Mikko Koivu to the biggest deal in Wild history, a seven-year, $47.25 million contract extension.
If that were true -- that statistics can't capture Koivu's worth -- the right response would be: Dude, get some new statistics! But it's not true. We can estimate Koivu's value to his team on the ice. We can guesstimate his worth in dollars. We can even calculate how much Minnesota is willing to pay for his leadership and loyalty. In fact, the gap between what leading metricians have been able to figure out about player value and what has seeped into mainstream coverage and front offices may be bigger in hockey than in any sport.
Get new statistics? At Statistics R Us, or what? It's not true that there are aspects of the NHL and players that cannot be explained by stats? Man... thanks for saving us from ourselves. Here I thought "Moneyball" was a book about baseball. But hey, let's see what the man has to say, shall we?
However, Koivu is quite some distance away from the best players in the league: He ranked 19th in the league among forwards with 15.3 goals versus threshold (GVT) in 2009-10. GVT, developed by Tom Awad of Puck Prospectus, measures the sum of a player's offensive, defensive and shootout value in goals above replacement.
Let's be clear. GVT is a great stat, sheds some light on how players compare to each other. Not going to knock the stat. And I will stipulate that Mikko ranks 19th in that statistical category. Puck Prospectus does great work. Half the time, I can't figure out what it is they are trying to tell me, but I'm not much of a stats guy.
We'll accept Peter at his word on this section and keep the knowledge in our back pockets, shall we? Next up:
Alex Ovechkin led the NHL with 30.1 GVT last year and Sidney Crosby (29.4) was No. 2. Koivu was closer to players like Joe Thornton (16.6), Martin St. Louis (16.4) and Marian Hossa (15.0), which is no insult.
Agreed. That should not even be in an article telling me that Koivu isn't worth his money. Thornton, St. Louis, or Hossa? Sounds good to me, but hey, maybe that's just me.
Koivu hasn't always played for very good teams. The Wild didn't make the playoffs last season and were outscored by 27 goals. Koivu also has a reputation for taking on the opposition's best players. That's something we can actually check: At Behind the Net's Advanced Statistics Page , there's an incredible trove of data, including scoring and plus/minus stats, numbers on individual shooting, penalties and blocked shots and indices measuring the quality of players' teams and competition. It turns out that Koivu played against tough opposing forwards while Jacques Lemaire was coaching Minnesota through 2008-09, though not so much last year. Further, Koivu has started a majority of his possessions in the defensive zone over the past three seasons. He's great on faceoffs, winning more than anyone in the league except Crosby last season. See, while these are things that traditionalists count as "intangibles," there are ways to measure all of them.
No sir, these are not the things that traditionalists call "intangibles." Intangibles are things like leadership, who wins the battles in the corner, the intensity on ice and off, the ability to play in multiple situations and not lose a step. Intangibles are, by definition, things that cannot be measured. Faceoff wins is such a standard statistic, it is included in every fantasy hockey league ever made.
Buried in this paragraph is the line "Further, Koivu has started a majority of his possessions in the defensive zone over the past three seasons." Indeed, he has, but that wouldn't be to prevent the other team from scoring, right? I mean, since you say that Koivu's time as a shut down center is over. It must just be because it was Mikko's turn on the ice, and it's just coincidence that it was in the defensive zone.
But they don't change our overall evaluation of Koivu. Suppose we look at his Relative Corsi, which takes a player's shooting plus/minus -- the number of shots his team takes while he's on the ice minus the number of shots it allows -- and compares it to what happens when he's off the ice. Really, everything a player does should be related to shot creation or prevention. Relative Corsi accounts for the quality of a player's teammates (and, implicitly, that of his opposition) -- Gabriel Desjardins has called it "the best single statistic we have to evaluate a player's performance."
Among forwards in 2009-10, Koivu ranked … 19th in the NHL.
There's that number again. 19th. It was so important that it had to be set off from the rest of the sentence. 19th. Same as his rank for GVT. Interesting. Moving on.
Look at the chart here, where Ryan Popilchak of Sports Opinionated rates the value of the top 25 forwards in the league by comparing their average GVT over the past three seasons to their salary cap charge for 2010-11. In this group of highly-paid, mostly outstanding players, teams are getting an average of 2.33 goals beyond replacement value for every $1 million they spend. While Ovechkin will cost his team more than $9.5 million this season, the most of any forward, he is nevertheless a great deal at 3.25 GVT per million dollars of cap space. Koivu ranks 17th on the list at 1.91. His new deal makes him a better value than Vincent Lecavalier or Thomas Vanek, but nowhere near Henrik Sedin or Pavel Datsyuk -- and Koivu is five years older than some of the other players ahead of him in value, such as Nicklas Backstrom and Jonathan Toews.
Koivu is a top-20 guy, not a top-five or top-10 guy. His real value came in the past few seasons, when he was churning out nearly 3.5 goals beyond replacement for every $1 million his team spent on him. Unfortunately, the Wild could not translate that performance into playoff wins.
He's not a top five-or-ten guy, he's a top 20 guy. So... around, say 19th? Koivu ranks 17th in the GVT per million stat. 17th. 19th. Top 20. Got it. Next?
Minnesota fans are justifiably glad the team didn't let Koivu skate away, as Marian Gaborik did last year. But the numbers say this is a maintenance deal, where the Wild are paying about $1.2 million more per year than Koivu's production justifies to keep their captain, longest-tenured player and heart of their team.
OK. My turn now, good sir. You say that the Wild are paying Koivu $1.2 million more per year than his production justifies. This is where you lose me. Which production are you referring to? Are you going back to goals and points? Could be, but Mikko ranked 24th in points, and just 78th in goals. So which one is it? Maybe it is the categories in which Mikko finished 19th? Or was it GVT per million dollars, where Mikko finished 17th?
I'm only asking all of these questions because Mikko's new $6.75 million cap hit would rank him 21st in salary cap hit, according to NHLNumbers.
But hey. Paying a guy the 21st highest average salary for ranking 17th in at least one of your quoted stats, and 19th in two others, plus calling him a "top-20 guy" seems to be not worth it. All of the metrics Peter used suggest that Koivu is somewhere between the 17th and 19th best player in the NHL. Well... except for that pesky faceoff stat, where he is second only to Sid the Kid.
This begs the question: If he is somewhere between 17th and 19th, how is paying him the 21st highest average salary not a good deal?
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Comments
Bryan, you never cease to entertain me
And the guy who wrote that article basically shot himself in the foot. He’s talking about how bad a deal it is, yet all his arguments seem to indicate that it isn’t. And if he’s going to compare numbers of other players, maybe he should take a look at other Wild players’ numbers, then maybe he could see just how good a deal this was for the Wild.
JS, Champion of the first ever Hockey Wilderness Playoff Bracket Challenge! WHOOOOOOOO!
twitter: BubbleWild48
if they were really smart. .
I agree with bubble, people over at ESPN seriously need to learn how to write. They bash the guy nearly every sentence, then come up with stats which seem to back up the Wild’s decision to sign him.
The only confusing part is what ESPN wants me to believe. I feel like I just got the ol’ bait-n-switch. They lured me in with a tasty headline, only to baffle me with all their stats.
Point is, Koivu has been much better than other free agents they could have *cough*Gabby*cough* signed but elected not to. Looks as the though the WIld got smart and simply signed a player who has been rock solid for them from day 1.
Kinda seems like he’s just appealing to the masses. He argues with himself throughout that whole article. It even seemed like he was trying to justify the contract at some point.
This is why when anyone wants some REAL Wild coverage, it's HW and Russo!
JS, Champion of the first ever Hockey Wilderness Playoff Bracket Challenge! WHOOOOOOOO!
twitter: BubbleWild48
by BubbleWild48 on Jul 20, 2010 7:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Just a reminder for the rest of the gang! ;-)
JS, Champion of the first ever Hockey Wilderness Playoff Bracket Challenge! WHOOOOOOOO!
twitter: BubbleWild48
by BubbleWild48 on Jul 21, 2010 12:08 AM CDT up reply actions
He ranked 19th in the league among forwards with 15.3 goals versus threshold (GVT) in 2009-10.
If this guy took the time to read Awad’s writing on GVT — or even sent him a frickin email — he would have learned that GVT underestimates a player’s defensive value. Things like faceoffs, zone starts, quality of competition and teammates (a bunch of things that work in Mikko’s favor) aren’t taken into account in GVT. Don’t get me wrong, I love GVT and all of Tom’s work, but this author hasn’t done his homework.
No sir, there are not the things that traditionalists call “intangibles.” Intangibles are things like leadership, who wins the battles in the corner, the intensity on ice and off, the ability to play in multiple situations and not lose a step. Intangibles are, by definition, things that cannot be measured.
Spot on. This guy is losing credibility fast.
Relative Corsi accounts for the quality of a player’s teammates (and, implicitly, that of his opposition)
It’s my understanding that this is false. Rel Corsi is Corsi ON – Corsi OFF. I don’t think comp or teammates come into the equation.
BR, if I were you, I’d be really pissed I paid money to read this garbage.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
Yup, Keating was wrong. Here’s Desjardins’ email response to me:
I think Peter Keating is referring to “adjusted Corsi”, which takes into account faceoffs and competition (but not teammates.)
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
Nice. Good find. Thank you for that.
Hockey Wilderness
Assistant Editor:SBN Minnesota
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
No problem.
I wouldn’t think a mistake like this was a big deal if the author were someone just writing about hockey for fun, and trying to get into the advanced stats community. But this guy gets paid, and it’s on ESPN.com. A mistake like this is either because he’s lazy or he doesn’t know what he’s talking about; both of which are inexcusable for someone in his position.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
Paid to read it? Who did? ;-)
Hockey Wilderness
Assistant Editor:SBN Minnesota
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
He's one of the best, believe you me!
JS, Champion of the first ever Hockey Wilderness Playoff Bracket Challenge! WHOOOOOOOO!
twitter: BubbleWild48
by BubbleWild48 on Jul 20, 2010 10:08 PM CDT up reply actions
MASS ANGRY EMAILS!
Lets go Wild fans! :P Prepare for hell Keating!
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by circulartheory on Jul 21, 2010 12:51 AM CDT reply actions
No but seriously...
I consider this a sort of scam. If you write that Koivu’s contract was not worth it with your own opinion and make people pay for it, thats fine. But when you make people pay for something when your headline does not match your comments, thats just misguiding people.
MK is a loser. Fine, write your own stuff. I don’t care. But when you write MK is a loser, and all you do is prove that he isn’t, thats an extreme waste of money!
I do not believe these type of people have jobs. Any of us could do better than this clown. And in addition, you would think there would do editors for ESPN.
Keating, you just embarrassed yourself to one of the largest hockey markets in the US. I’m still angry because there are people out there that do good writing and aren’t receiving money like you, who only proved his ignorance. You should be fired for scamming readers out of their money. Shame on you.
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by circulartheory on Jul 21, 2010 1:22 AM CDT up reply actions
And in addition, you would think there would do editors for ESPN.
Sadly, I don’t think there are many hockey editors for ESPN that know about stats or common sense.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
Guys…WTF?
Why do you care?
I came over here a couple days ago, and gently suggested he got the best of Fletch’ in negotiations. Not to troll you guys, but just to point out that you could have got a better deal. It seemed that the Wild gave him everything he wanted, and ignored some comparables ( yeah yeah…no need to reopen it…just an opinion )
Koivu is a very good player, and the fans are happy.
Should that not be enough for you guys? Calling for the writer to be fired, or railing against every little word seems a little beneath you guys.
You seem like knowledgeable hockey fans. Be happy your big star is signed long term. Hope he can live up to the increased expectations.
Yes, with that big number comes increased visibility. He may or may not live up to that. That’s life.
But getting bent out of shape about what some numbers guy says ……it seems a little silly.
( for the record, I like stats too, but not any more than goals assists and maybe plus minus. FO % and whatnot. As a Canadian adult that has known, played and been around this wonderful game all my life ( over 40 years and counting.., I certainly don’t need sabermetrics and Corsi to tell me what is good or bad on the ice…)
Those that use all these new stats to make or disprove arguments have little hockey sense. Not all, but a lot of this new stuff is just silly. For instance…I KNOW Ryan Johnson is a warrior from watching him play. The blocked shots…the playing a year ago with a finger so broken it looked like a corkscrew and made his wife nauseous. He had the worst Corsi in the league last year supposedly.
That does not make him the worst player though, does it?
We care because its the Wild, and we are Wild fans. So when other fans barrage us with comments like “WAY overpaid” or “overrated”, its our job to defend the contract
Like someone mentioned before (might be Bryan) but there are very few comparables to guys like Kesler and Koivu, not giving us enough to give us a ‘fair’ value. . Many fans agree Koivu is either signed to market value or slightly overpaid, but by 1.75mil? Really? Besides Kesler, I can’t think of many fair comparables to Koivu.
Thats the thing. There isn’t any increased expectations. Koivu has done SO much that he’s already playing like a 6.5mil player to us. Other fans think we’re overpaying for his potential, but we’re not. We’re paying him for what he’s already done, which is pretty much 71Pts on a team that can’t score, leadership, great defensive play, some physical grit and the ability to make others better.
Not sure about the others, but I’m getting bent out of shape because this guy is an ESPN writer, making readers pay for his stuff, then having his content full of crap. There are many other writers better than him, yet he charges people to pay for it. IMO, thats BS.
And I think your missing the point of this article. The stats that the guy DID offer us in order to show Koivu is being overpaid, is actually supporting him. The writer mentions Koivu 17th, 19th, 19th, and a top 20 player. Koivu happens to be paid with the 21st highest average salary. So in what way is that overpaid?
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by circulartheory on Jul 21, 2010 6:04 AM CDT up reply actions
Actually
I’m irritated because he spent all this time saying that Koivu is overpaid, yet the statistical analysis show that he’s in the top 20 forwards in value to his team and is paid as the 21st against the cap. That’s the point. Unfortunately, it’s really just that. Don’t waste your time bashing the contract when the contract falls in line with your analysis just because you think it’s the cool thing to do.
Best part for him though, most people are too stupid to read much beyond the headline and will just jump on and say that it was a terrible contract for a terrible player on a terrible team with terrible fans in a terrible stadium and it’s annoying.
Proprietor of Hockey Wilderness - We take Minnesota hockey WAY too seriously.
Why do you care?
This is a hockey blog, and this article is about the Wild’s star player. The article expresses a negative opinion about Koivu — why wouldn’t people on this blog react to that?
Calling for the writer to be fired, or railing against every little word seems a little beneath you guys.
This is the internet, and you’re self-righteous attitude is pretty off-base. If this piece of work from Keating is representative of what he usually does, then he should be fired. There are plenty of bloggers on SBN who know more about hockey, and would put together a better piece than this guy. Couple that with the fact that some of the things he said were flat out wrong.
But getting bent out of shape about what some numbers guy says
People here aren’t getting bent out of shape.
I KNOW Ryan Johnson is a warrior from watching him play. The blocked shots…the playing a year ago with a finger so broken it looked like a corkscrew and made his wife nauseous. He had the worst Corsi in the league last year supposedly.
He did have the worst Corsi last year, but if you read this article, you’ll see that you need to interpret Corsi numbers in context. Matter of fact, you need to interpret all hockey numbers in context, which is exactly what advanced stats try to do! When you do that, Ryan Johnson isn’t that bad.
Those that use all these new stats to make or disprove arguments have little hockey sense.
I use advanced stats all the time and think they work extremely well, so I’m a little insulted by your remark. I think your problem with them is that you haven’t spent the time to actually get to know them.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
Looks like we got a new defender! Hahaa :)
JS, Champion of the first ever Hockey Wilderness Playoff Bracket Challenge! WHOOOOOOOO!
twitter: BubbleWild48
by BubbleWild48 on Jul 21, 2010 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Hey, I like the Koivu signing, and people who don’t understand it or rail against usually have no idea how hockey works. I also thought vancitydan’s remarks were off-base, and since I have nothing better to do now, I figured I’d let him know :)
You guys have a nice community here.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
Thank you!
JS, Champion of the first ever Hockey Wilderness Playoff Bracket Challenge! WHOOOOOOOO!
twitter: BubbleWild48
by BubbleWild48 on Jul 21, 2010 7:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Self righteous? I asked a pertinent question dude. Go fornicate yourself. I was supporting the Wild fans, and the last thing anyone needs is some arrogant Pens fan going all postal on something he knows nothing about.
Don’t preach to me aout Corsi in what you would call a self righteous manner either dude.
Go ahead and use your advanced stats all you want. They matter not a whit. That was not the point.
Context? Context of what?
Sorry other guys…this guy is a douche. I asked some fair questions. I made a point of not being condecending or insulting, and instead of a converstation I get insults from a guy that isn’t even a fan of your team?
Hey Pens fan. How about I have probably seen the Wild even more than you. How about I have hockey jerseys older than you. How much have you actually played the game there Pens fan?
Sorry B Reynolds. I get that it is all just entertainment, and we are all just splitting hairs until puck drop in the fall.
For the record, I like the player. I think he is overpaid by today;s standards, but only very marginally. Certainly not by 2 mil.
What the Pens fan above forgets to actually get is that I was supporting you guys. I think you are knowledgeable and passionate fans on a par with any other hockey mad market.
That’s what I was questioning. The way that people are defending this contract like a mother bear with cubs is a little silly. It reminds me of how I did the same thing with Luongo and his 12 year deal. Its normal to defend the flag and all..
Honestly, I just thought when you sign a “big time FA” that is your own, you should get a bit of a discount for the home team. Mikko didn’t seem to give that to the Wild.
Peace
Self righteous? I asked a pertinent question dude.
This is what you wrote:
Calling for the writer to be fired, or railing against every little word seems a little beneath you guys.
That doesn’t seem like you’re asking a question.
I’m not preaching about Corsi, I’m just stating, along with every other hockey stat-head, that Corsi and other numbers all need to be taken into context. That’s not controversial, and pointing that out isn’t preaching. The article I linked to explains which stats should be used when interpreting Corsi.
I also re-read my response and don’t see where I insulted you. I think you’re creating a straw man to try and distract people from your statements when you called me arrogant, a douche, and told me to fornicate.
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
Huh, never thought I'd see a Canuck fan and a Pens fan duke it out in HW...
Actually, Koivu would’ve undoubtedly gotten more on the market, so Fletch, as well as pretty much every Wild fan, feel that Koivu did accept a home team discount. They never hit any snags in the negotiations and both sides were happy with the result.
And it’s our job to defend the contract. Especially since we’re right. With Koivu, you have to see it to believe it. The reason everyone thinks it’s such a bad contract is because they’ve never seen him play. They also don’t take into account that he’s not in a team of Pens, Wings, Sharks, Caps, Hawks caliber, so it makes so sense to compare him to any of the stars on those teams.
JS, Champion of the first ever Hockey Wilderness Playoff Bracket Challenge! WHOOOOOOOO!
twitter: BubbleWild48
by BubbleWild48 on Jul 21, 2010 7:25 PM CDT up reply actions
And by ''so sense'', I do mean NO sense.
JS, Champion of the first ever Hockey Wilderness Playoff Bracket Challenge! WHOOOOOOOO!
twitter: BubbleWild48
by BubbleWild48 on Jul 21, 2010 7:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Who should we cheer for?
One’s a Nuck but the other has Crosby? (I don’t like Crosby, personal bias)
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by circulartheory on Jul 21, 2010 7:40 PM CDT up reply actions
I also don't like Crosby... Just one more reason I think we're twins seperated at birth!
But both are supporting Koivu in their own way, so… I’m cheering for Koivu :)
JS, Champion of the first ever Hockey Wilderness Playoff Bracket Challenge! WHOOOOOOOO!
twitter: BubbleWild48
by BubbleWild48 on Jul 21, 2010 9:31 PM CDT up reply actions
+1 :)
JS, Champion of the first ever Hockey Wilderness Playoff Bracket Challenge! WHOOOOOOOO!
twitter: BubbleWild48
by BubbleWild48 on Jul 22, 2010 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions
Don't worry guys...
Koivu was a good signing. Now, if you want to talk about overpaying a player, talk to this Canuck fan about how much they paid for Hamhuis!
Hint: About 1.5-2 million too much, in my opinion.
/Minnesota Ex-pat, Pred’s fan and season ticket holder for 3 years running.
Always welcome
Dan won’t catch this, and this first part is not aimed at him, but instead to the rest of HW readership. VancityDan disagrees with me. Did you see how he supported his argument? This is what we call a rational argument. To certain members of the HW reading community, this is when you get a rational argument back. OK? OK. (Good work, Dan. Thank you)
Now. Dan. If there was contract confusion over Jarod Palmer, this wouldn’t be a story. It may warant a small post just to explain what is happening, but it would not be as big of a deal. This is Mikko Koivu, and this is the first time the Wild have re-signed a big time free agent in his prime. This is a huge deal here in MN. I agree, the fans should be happy, and for the most part, they are.
My job here is to entertain the readers, to bring them the goings on from around the interwebz, and throw a little opinion in there as well. It is an ongoing mission of mine to call out the hockey media when they print or post material that is just flat out stupid. This is one of those posts. Keating did not support his argument with facts. In truth, everything he wrote contradicts his hypothesis. If he followed his own evidence, he would come to a different conclusion.
Instead, he came to a conclusion and then tried to support it, failing miserably in the process.
The point of the post wasn’t to complain, but to explain. To give an example of why the MSM does not have to trusted implicitly. Certain members get a pass when they make a mistake. Others get called to the mat and taken to task.
Hockey Wilderness
Assistant Editor:SBN Minnesota
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
You know you're confusing the hell out of me right?
Hockey Wilderness - Front Page Writer
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by circulartheory on Jul 21, 2010 7:39 PM CDT up reply actions
I do what I can. ;-)
Hockey Wilderness
Assistant Editor:SBN Minnesota
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
I wish some analysts would do a new salary composite...
There should be a ranking of contracts that ignores the frontloading contracts that artificially lower the per year average. I’d like to see a real value ranking that averages the top paying years of a contract, not the entire contract. Yes, officially against the cap is the number teams have to play around, but the reality is there are several players making a lot more per year than their cap hit… all of which would rank higher on real salary per year than Koivu.
As for the intent of your post, it seems odd that you can create an argument that Koivu is overpaid based on his advanced stats but prove, with those stats, that he is paid exactly right. (And that is not factoring in where his true ranking is in per year salary… or those intangibles).
It was hard to continue reading
after he called face off stats “intangibles”. ESPN should stick to the NFL, since it’s all they really care about anyway.

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